quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
How about leaving us out of this argument amongst yourselves?

Do not presume to know or understand the Jewish position.

Such foolishness has led to enough more pain than can be appreciated in this discussion.

Stick to your "salvation", and leave us to work ours out with the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

We trust our G-d, will deal with us in fair and proper manner, and we willingly accept how it works out. Good or bad.

"The Jew has left the chat..."

Hello, my friend. I feel that it’s impossible to not mention Judaism in a discussion about Christianity as it is a sect of Judaism. I’m just your little brother, wanting to come back home. I do believe the prophets predicted the coming of the Messiah and that converts are grafted into Israel, which is more than only Jews. The old covenant wasn’t abolished and I’m doing my best to understand Christianity in that light.

I do apologize to anyone that I’ve offended … but we all know I’ll do it again. I am passionate about the subject and I actually enjoy these conversations. I just wish no one would get heated.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
? I’m not aware of a major denomination which holds that Christians are bound to keep the Sabbath. Or any parts of Mosaic law.

Yes, it’s not typical in catholicized Christianity. However, there are a handful that do. I don’t blame the laity at all.

I say “catholicized” because it was the roman catholic church that replaced the sabbath with their “lord’s day”. You can check out the book (pamphlet?) “Rome’s Challenge” for more info from a catholic priest.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
We've actually been studying Sabbath lately as a Christian practice in our church small group. I'm coming to believe that the church has largely neglected the Sabbath as unnecessary to our own detriment. God created the practice at creation, and commanded us to follow it for our own betterment.

The Sabbath should be a time to rest, reflect on what God has done and is doing in our lives, and take joy in what he has provided for us. Working (and thinking about work) 24/7 is unhealthy physically, mentally, and spiritually, and practicing Sabbath is a way to take a break and to refocus and recharge.

In the new testament, Christ rejected some of the legalistic rules of the Sabbath, but he still took time to rest and refocus when he could sneak away from the crowds that continually followed him. But when people came to him on the Sabbath for help, he still helped them. I think his example makes it clear that it's still a valuable practice that we should follow, but the underlying intent is more important than a particular day of the week or a traditional set of rules about how it should be done.

It's pretty much impossible for me to observe Sabbath on a set day of the week. I work a rotating 12 hour shift and am scheduled every other weekend, plus other random times when stuff comes up. It's very easy to get caught up in life and forget to set aside time to take that break. My wife and I have decided that we need to be a lot more intentional about setting aside at least one evening a week that I'm home to spend time as a family, ditch the phones, talk with our kids about what God is doing in our lives, and spend time together relaxing. So far it's been a very positive change.

I strongly agree with this. There are many principles from Old Testament practices that are have been born out as being efficacious.

Eating pig or shrimp, both of which I like and do eat, surely is less than an optimal diet.

Some Old Testament practices are downright can only be categorized as downright divinely inspired. For example, the practice of circumcision on the 8th day started to be observed in Abraham's life when there were no research grants from the National Institute of Health.

Only in modern times have doctors determined that the infant's vitamin K levels which plays a crucial role in blood clotting reaches peak concentrations on the eight day of life.

Apparently, the 8th day is also a pivotal moment in the development of the infant's immune system against pathogens and infections.

There are many more interesting observations noted in the linked article below.

But back to the Sabbath, there definitely is a benefit for scheduling at least a day of restoration. I'm sure there's a similar agricultural benefit to giving farmland a sabbath every seventh year.

Circumcision Countdown: The Physiology Behind Why Eight Days Matters

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
As far as I can tell, I injected Judaism into the conversation in the seventh post on page seventeen. Mark's immediate response touched on something I think is interesting: the fact that Jews don't evangelize. I intend to research it more.

Concerning other Jewish topics so-far mentioned, this conversation on Reddit (I know) has some very thorough and interesting replies. Perhaps sigmonkey can lend his opinion, if he cares to.

https://www.reddit.com/r/relig...reject_jesus_as_the/

This is an early and thoughtful response to the OP's query Why do Jews still reject Jesus as the messiah?...

Respectfully and I'm not for censoring anyone, I would advice for self-restraint on raising this topic on a public forum. It is pretty much the equivalent of being around a dinner table and having someone present but talking about them with other people in the third person as if they aren't there. And what would you expect to happen at that dinner table if you try to engage them to discuss the topic?

While Christians are commanded to make disciples of all nations, individual efforts should be guided by the Holy Spirit and wisdom where and when just like when the Holy Spirit stopped Paul and his companions from preaching the word in Asia and Bithyia (Acts 16:6-7).

As for the topic of your interest, I would direct you to Romans chapters 9 through 11 which specifically addresses your concern. Central to those chapters is the explanation and the promise in Romans 11:25-29.

I understand what you mean, Rey, and I think you're right to advise restraint.

I do want to make it clear that I was in pursuit only of knowledge for myself. I have no intention of attempting to convince a Jew that Jesus is his messiah.

I will refer to your recommendations. Thank you.

I do side with the Jews that they have no reason to believe in Jesus when Christianity is full of unbiblical things like dispensationalism and replacement theology. Syncretism and iconography are two more huge red flags. I don’t blame them at all.

I wish we could have this discussion from a Jewish adherent’s point of view.

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:
I do side with the Jews that they have no reason to believe in Jesus when Christianity is full of unbiblical things like dispensationalism and replacement theology. Syncretism and iconography are two more huge red flags. I don’t blame them at all.

Modern day and American “Christianity” are full of non biblical things. Christianity is defined by scripture. The so called replacement theolgy is failure to recognize the progression of the church. The NT church did not replace anything, it developed into it just as God intended from the beginning. That is why Paul calls the church the Israel of God.

There were plenty of prophecies fulfilled, people can choose to believe or ignore them. Even Josephus recorded information that coincided with NT accounts.

Ultimately we will all realize truth when we leave this life. The problem is that there will be no way to go back and change the choices we made in this life. God is no respecter of persons, unless we repent, all will likewise perish.

quote:

Christianity is full of unbiblical things like dispensationalism and replacement theology.

That stuff is just mental masturbation. It accomplishes nothing.

quote:

Ultimately we will all realize truth when we leave this life.

Well, I think therein lies the crux of the issue. Your belief is your truth. It's the truth. Be it Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc. It's the truth, and the others are (ultimately) incorrect. It's not a matter of an unknown truth, and we're all welcome to have our varying opinions on the matter (though that doesn't mean we can't coexist peacefully in this world). If it's not the truth, than everyone is merely (Pascal) wagering according to whatever flavor of God their worldly mind and body best agree with.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

Christianity is full of unbiblical things like dispensationalism and replacement theology.

That stuff is just mental masturbation. It accomplishes nothing.

Both are pretty big in the pentecostal movement.

quote:

Originally posted by mrvmax:

Modern day and American “Christianity” are full of non biblical things. Christianity is defined by scripture. The so called replacement theology is failure to recognize the progression of the church. The NT church did not replace anything, it developed into it just as God intended from the beginning. That is why Paul calls the church the Israel of God.

There were plenty of prophecies fulfilled, people can choose to believe or ignore them. Even Josephus recorded information that coincided with NT accounts.

I believe the non biblical things especially in the interpretation of scripture is because people try to interpret scripture within the limitations of their current reality. The replacement theology is a perfect example. After the Jews were expelled from the region around 135 AD, there was no country that could be called Israel. And history has shown that once a people lose their country, they never get it back. In light of this, people then postulated that the the church has replaced Israel and is the inheritor of Israel's promises. It's as if they never read where God kept Israel in Egypt before taking them to the promise land. And nearly 2,000 years later, Israel defied the odds and claimed back their land and country.

Chapters 9 through 11 of Romans which I previously mentioned before lays out for Christians God's plan. Israel is a lasting memorial to God's faithfulness in regards to His promises.

But I have to question your statement of Paul calling the church the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16 is the only place I know of where it says "Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule - to the Israel of God." But this is rendered only in the New International Version. Other translations render this as "And all who will follow this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God." So in the New Testament, there is not a conflation of Israel the nation and the rest of the world. Even in Revelation, we see the 144,000 sealed from each tribe of Israel and immediately after it talks of a great multitude from ever nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages (Revelation 7:4-9). For one, it's going to be hard to analogize a subset of the church to a corresponding tribe. How those people will be identified as from which tribe they'll be, I don't know but I'm sure God can. But the passage shows even in the end times a distinction between people of Israel and the rest of the world. These 144,000 are set aside for a purpose as they get a song only they can learn (Revelations 14:1-3).

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

Christianity is full of unbiblical things like dispensationalism and replacement theology.

That stuff is just mental masturbation. It accomplishes nothing.

Both are pretty big in the pentecostal movement.

Actually, that is incorrect. Dispensationalism and replacement theology does not even make a blip in the average Pentecostal church. Pentecostals, as the name implies, centers around what happened on Pentecost day - tongues, gifts of the spirit, healing.

Dispensationalism is more talked about in Baptist churches and non-denominational churches.

Replacement theology features more in older denominations that existed before 1948 when the state of Israel was reconstituted such as the Roman Catholic Church, Lutherans, and Presbyterians.

I agree such parsing of doctrines serve to take the focus away from themission of the church, hence the phrase 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin." People get wrapped up on issues they admit are inconsequential which make them blind to the half-dead stranger lying in the ditch. Thus, Christians become so heavenly minded they're of no earthly use.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
Actually, that is incorrect. Dispensationalism and replacement theology does not even make a blip in the average Pentecostal church. ...

Yeah, I kind of lumped the prosperity doctrine and "word of faith movement" pentecostals in with the rest. I should apologize for that. I was specifically referring to that specific flavor of pentecostal, such as Hagin, Copeland, Dollar, et al., as that is where I first heard the dispensationalism and replacement theology doctrines. Admonition accepted.

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:
Christianity is full of unbiblical things like dispensationalism and replacement Covenant theology.

It's one or the other, there is no 3rd choice.

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:

Syncretism and iconography are two more huge red flags. I don’t blame them at all.

Reformed Christianity agrees on both points, that is why it relies solely on the Bible instead of equating tradition with Scripture. Also, the 2nd commandment is taken seriously and leaves a large portion of us as iconoclast.

quote:

Originally posted by FenderBender:

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:
Christianity is full of unbiblical things like dispensationalism and replacement Covenant theology.

It's one or the other, there is no 3rd choice.

I don’t know what this means.

quote:

Originally posted by FenderBender:

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:
Syncretism and iconography are two more huge red flags. I don’t blame them at all.

Reformed Christianity agrees on both points, that is why it relies solely on the Bible instead of equating tradition with Scripture. Also, the 2nd commandment is taken seriously and leaves a large portion of us as iconoclast.

Would it offended if I tested that statement?

quote:

People get wrapped up on issues they admit are inconsequential which make them blind to the half-dead stranger lying in the ditch. Thus, Christians become so heavenly minded they're of no earthly use.

Well said.

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:

quote:

Originally posted by FenderBender:

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:
Christianity is full of unbiblical things like dispensationalism and replacement Covenant theology.

It's one or the other, there is no 3rd choice.

I don’t know what this means.

quote:

Originally posted by FenderBender:

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:
Syncretism and iconography are two more huge red flags. I don’t blame them at all.

Reformed Christianity agrees on both points, that is why it relies solely on the Bible instead of equating tradition with Scripture. Also, the 2nd commandment is taken seriously and leaves a large portion of us as iconoclast.

Would it offended if I tested that statement?

On the first topic, they are two sides of the same coin. You're going to have to hold to one, the other, or a blend of the two. Generally it's a protestant stance as the Orthodox and Catholic Church interpret the bible for their followers.

And feel free to test the iconoclast issue.

quote:

Originally posted by FenderBender:
And feel free to test the iconoclast issue.

Am I free to challenge you on syncretism as well?

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:
SNIP
I should apologize for that. I was specifically referring to that specific flavor of pentecostal, such as Hagin, Copeland, Dollar, et al., as that is where I first heard the dispensationalism and replacement theology doctrines. Admonition accepted.

I thought Hagen was “Baptist”?

I get that they’re all really “Mammon” but even denominations with strong theology requirements can have people go off the rails.

No idea about the theological standards for
Pentecostals.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
I thought Hagen was “Baptist”? …

I’m thinking he was a charismatic Pentecostal according to his teachings.