Why Easter isn't a pagan hopliday:

A) I don’t think there’s any doubt about Christmas being set to make it easier to convert Germanic tribes. I think Rome has documentation to that effect.

B) I agree with the churches who use Resurrection Sunday/other languages which use Passover, but I don’t think Easter is nearly as problematic as Christmas.

There’s not really a secular form of “Easter”. It’s pretty much “Rejoice He is Risen!”

Christmas is subject to a concerted push to make it part of the Church of Self and Feeling Good and Mankind knows more than God.

@mdblanton, I think that video is trying to really stretch a point. Everywhere else went with “Passover.”

If the Germanics did not, there was a reason.

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Originally posted by reloader-1:

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Originally posted by mark123:
For clarity, I honestly and truly believe that celebrating easter is worshiping the wrong god. I believe that celebrating christmas is celebrating the wrong god. And that is much different from simply sinning, it’s idolatry/adultry/disloyalty.

Mark, you are my Sigforum brother (and I hope that it is ok to refer you as that!). I appreciate and understand your beliefs, and I especially admire how you phrased it as “I honestly and truly believe”.

That’s the key point; that is your belief, and that is sacred. For you to celebrate Easter, would be to sin. I will defend you in this, just as for our Jewish brothers to “believe” in Jesus would be a sin for many of them.

God has given us a conscience, and we all do our best to follow him. You are doing that, and your heart is in a good place. Keep striving for God, and he will always show His love.

thank you. Yes, we are absolutely brothers. I believe you all are saved, the original purpose of this thread. I just worry very much about you as much as I do about myself. I can’t justify “once saved, always saved” and i want us on the side that makes it. I just had a huge discussion with a friend and his point to me was “Are we striving to not sin?”

I greatly appreciate how you care for me and I hope that my worry shows that I care for you. I don’t mind that anyone disagrees with me. I enjoy a discussion or even debate. I do get carried away quite often. I apologize. It guess it does bother me that I feel that I don’t have a home or fit in to a church.

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Originally posted by BlackTalonJHP:
What do you mean by 'wrong god'? Are you saying that we shouldn't celebrate or commemorate the incarnation of the Lord Jesus Christ at all or are you speaking about how many people celebrate Christmas by indulging in consumerism and making it about Christmas trees, lights, gifts, etc. or are you saying there is an actual other god that people are worshipping on Christmas?

Well, I’m comparing it with the Hebrews coming out of Egypt. Moses went to talk with God and the Hebrews got antsy and had Aaron make a golden calf. They looked at it and called it YHWH and worshiped the idol. They actually said “Here is your god, who brought you up from the land of Egypt! … Tomorrow is to be a feast for YHWH.” They were doing it for YHWH but doing through proscribed and offensive actions.

I am saying there are other gods originally worshiped during these holidays and worshiping God and/or Christ through them may just be equivalent to the golden calf incident.


On a side note, I’ve come across three scholars, all working independently of each other, that each came to the same conclusion of the date of the birth of Jesus. Michael S. Heiser, Victor Paul Wierwille and one other whose name I can’t recall. I’ll try to see if I wrote down the third name. I’d find one saying it questionable, two is very interesting but three kind of makes it pretty much good enough for me. The date is September 11, 3 B.C. which, IIRC, happened to be Rosh Hashanah. That’s another one of the prophecies that convinced me that it’s all real.

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Originally posted by mark123:
Yes, I understand what you mean. I don't communicate that way. I know my shortcomings and will try to overcome them.

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Originally posted by Rey HRH:
First, I'm not saying what the Seed of Abraham Fellowship is teaching is wrong; it's a messianic fellowship. I don't know if Tom Bradford, its founder, has a Jewish background but I have followed and supported other messianic fellowships whose founders come from Jewish backgrounds such as Ariel Ministries led by Arnold Fruchtenbaum and, more famously, Jews for Jesus. The point is, Messianic Fellowships are simply another flavor of Christianity just like Lutheran, Baptist, etc. No denomination, no local church will have everything perfect; the church is still comprised by imperfect sinners including its human leaders.

I do believe my position is beyond a denominational difference though.

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Originally posted by Rey HRH:
You said, "I never meant to upset anyone. But the command to make disciples is what I’m trying to do." I take it that in your participation in this thread, you were trying to follow the command to make disciples. But, for the most part, the people participating in this thread are already disciples. The command to make disciples, first and foremost, is to make believers out of non-believers; it's not to make other believers do things as you do or, more specifically, make other believers follow the Old Testament or the Tanakh as best as they can. You have to know that's not what the vast majority of saved Christians believe. They are no less Christians than you because of that belief nor are they any less disciples as you are.

I suppose that's my entire point. How can you be a disciple if you're not disciplined in a prescribed way? I'm saying that to "walk as Jesus walked" means to walk in Torah as the rules of His way.

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Originally posted by Rey HRH:
Law = Tutor
no longer under a tutor = no longer under the law.

I'm not saying you shouldn't try to follow the Old Testament if that's what you believe will please God; I'm saying other believers not part of your local congregation are under any obligation to follow the Old Testament as you are and you shouldn't make them. It'd be that same thing as a Pentecostal trying to convince a Baptist that he should speak in tongues. Saved Christians can be found in either persuasion. They're both to work to sharing the gospel and making non-believers be believers.

I'm saying that without being a protege of Torah and the prophets, you won't see that there is syncretism in your church or beliefs and I just don't want any of you to hear "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."


For clarity, I honestly and truly believe that celebrating easter is worshiping the wrong god. I believe that celebrating christmas is celebrating the wrong god. And that is much different from simply sinning, it’s idolatry/adultry/disloyalty.

This isn't about a difference in how people communicate. It's how people can get to the truth in a discussion. You have to lay out an argument to support your position beyond simply stating your position. And you have to lay out your argument that shows how the other person's position is wrong beyond saying it is wrong or the interpretation is incorrect because it contradicts your position.

With regards to your position being beyond a denominational thing. That a disciple can't be a disciple unless he's following the Tanakh. And that those who do not follow the Old Testament will hear, "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."

This last part is the key part "those who do not follow the Old Testament will hear, "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." That statement is from Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’"

Are you saying that those who profess belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior but say they are not obligated to follow the Old Testament will not enter the kingdom of heaven?

Because if that is your belief, then I can understand why you think your position is beyond a denominational difference and that one can't be a disciple unless they are following the Old Testament.

So is your position that it's okay if I believe it's the inner veil that was torn instead of the outer veil and I'll still enter the kingdom of heaven. But it's not okay if I believe I don't have to follow the Old Testament because I won't be able to enter the kingdom of heaven?

I'm assuming your answer is "yes, I (Rey HRH) have to believe I have to follow the Old Testament because I won't be able to enter the kingdom of heaven" but I would like you to confirm that is your position.

I base my assumption on what you said above: That those who aren't proteges of Torah and the prophets will hear, "I never knew you; depart from me you workers of lawlessness," that a disciple can't be a disciple unless they walk in Torah, and that your position is beyond a denominational difference. I'll wait for your answer.

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Originally posted by KSGM:
When I celebrate Easter, I am celebrating the resurrection of Christ. When I celebrate Christmas, I am celebrating His birth. I think someone already mentioned that those holidays, despite their origin, have been "liberated" and repurposed by Christians. If I chose to celebrate those events on different days, and give them different names, would that be OK, in your opinion? I appreciate your continued contributions, Mark.

All others are also very appreciated: Rey, Aglifter, Chellim, Reloader, etc.

I pretty much believe the Old Testament elements were foreshadowing the elements of Jesus. Mount Moriah, the most prominent mountain in the area later became the site of the temple (Genesis 22; 2 Chronicles 3:1). That's a fact borne by the Old Testament. But I also strongly suspect that the mountain in the area (not Mount Moriah itself) where Abraham sacrificed the ram which was the substitutionary sacrifice for Isaac later came to be Calvary. For this, there is no biblical support but I say it's no big thing for God to accomplish.

As for the other festivals, Jesus was resurrected on the Feast of First Fruits which is the day after the first Sabbath following Passover (Leviticus 23:9-11). The gospels say Jesus resurrected on the first day of the week which makes the previous day the Sabbath with was the first Sabbath after the Passover that Jesus celebrated with His disciples that Christians know as the Last Supper (Matthew 26:17). If you look at the last week of Jesus starting from the triumphant entry into Jerusalem, the cleansing of the temple, and the examinations by the Chief Priest and elders, the Pharisees, and the Sadducees, it parallels the rituals associated with Passover: selection of the lamb, examination of the lamb for any defects, the cleansing of the house of leaven, and lastly, the sacrifice (Exo 12:1-20, Lev 23:4-8, Num 9:1-14, Deu 16:1-5).

So rightfully, if we were to celebrate Resurrection Day accurately, we would celebrate it on the Jewish calendar of First Fruits but we can't because we're on the Gregorian calendar which is a solar calendar while the Jewish calendar is lunar based. Easter is celebrated on the first Sunday after the first full moon following the Spring equinox. But it is a fact based on the Bible, that the first Easter occurred on the Feast of First Fruits. In 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, Paul calls Christ having been raised from the dead as the first fruits of those who are dead and is the first fruits of those who will be resurrected at His second coming.

Pentecost, the day the Holy Spirit set down upon the disciples was also a Jewish holy day celebrated on the 50th day after the Sabbath following Passover (Exodus 24:22, Leviticus 23:15-21, Numbers 28:26-31, Deuteronomy 16:9-12, and Acts 2:14). It's called Pentecost in Acts meaning fiftieth.

The above are biblically based. I have no biblical support for the following but many Bible scholars also believe that Jesus was born during the Feast of Tabernacles which occurs in the month of Tishrei which can fall somewhere in the month of September through October. John 1:14 literally says in the Greek "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us..."

If people who believe in following the Old Testament cannot completely follow the commandment of Passover because there is no temple, then I can also celebrate the birth and resurrection of Jesus even though my timing is out of sync with the original calendar.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rey HRH,

Worth watching for lots of reasons, but he described the Passover Seder as a “survival manual,” and said the message was “if you want to survive, you must move.”

And, in the context of the Passion of the Christ being the completion of Passover, I think it makes sense.

https://youtu.be/mbdJtrXYBZs?si=sPeNkpW_Ozhty13S

I have a renewed curiosity about the OP. A fellow former Catholic in my Wednesday night group was talking about his grandfather's recent progress toward Christ. His grandfather and other immediate family are also lifelong Catholics.

My mother, her parents, and her brother are the same. Her brother is a Catholic priest. I respect the man. Is he saved?

Is my mom saved? Were her dead parents saved? She always said her mother was saint-like. How that's measured in the Catholic mindset doesn't mean that person had actually accepted the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.

In talking to my mother this morning about whether or not she felt she had been saved, I told her it would have been a transformative and memorable experience. Memorable because it would have been extremely emotional; transformative because you'd be a decidedly different person from then on.

It's been a long thread with a lot of drift but getting back to the OP I would say that it's possible to know that you have been saved (1 John 5:13) and each person knows themselves better than anyone and we should examine ourselves and test ourselves to see whether we are in the faith (2 Cor 13:5) and also ask ourselves whether we are only a hearer of the word or a doer of the word (James 1:19-25).

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Originally posted by Rey HRH:
... And that those who do not follow the Old Testament will hear, "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." ...

I never said that.

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Originally posted by KSGM:
…lifelong Catholics.

My mother, her parents, and her brother are the same. Her brother is a Catholic priest. I respect the man. Is he saved?

Is my mom saved? Were her dead parents saved? She always said her mother was saint-like. How that's measured in the Catholic mindset doesn't mean that person had actually accepted the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.

As a Catholic, our belief is that Jesus Christ saves us. He died for our sins, and opened the gates of Heaven. By following the commandments, and truly believing (that’s the key word in all of this - true belief) that we are doing the will of God through his Son, He will welcome us into Heaven.

Until the moment of Judgement, only God knows if we are “saved” - it is not something that I guarantee for myself by accepting Jesus, but rather when He accepts me in that moment. So, to answer your question, those people are “saved” in the way you think of it, just as you or I are “saved”.

Here in this thread we have multiple Christians that are deeply following the Lord and yet very very different in how they interpret that path. That is by design, Jesus knew that would occur. John 14:2 - In my Father’s House, there are many mansions.

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Originally posted by mark123:

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Originally posted by Rey HRH:
... And that those who do not follow the Old Testament will hear, "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." ...

I never said that.

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Originally posted by mark123:
I'm saying that without being a protege of Torah and the prophets, you won't see that there is syncretism in your church or beliefs and I just don't want any of you to hear "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."

How is my understanding of what you said different from what you said on March 13 at 6:31 AM near the bottom of your post?

You also said this on March 11 at 8:22 AM

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Originally posted by mark123:
For my question to "disciples of what?" I intended to lead you to come to the conclusion that the apostles all taught from the Tanakh. They were discipling their converts in the Torah in synagogues and various other places. To make a disciple meant to bring them to the things that Jesus taught and all those things were from the Old Testament. That's all I was saying. There isn't an abolishment of the old to bring in the new.

Are you not saying a true disciple of Jesus is someone who follows what He taught and are you not saying that what Jesus taught was for his disciples to follow the Tanakh which is the old Testament?

So please explain how I am misunderstanding your position when I say I think you believe that since Jesus taught His disciples to follow the Old Testament then those who do follow the Old Testament are his true disciples and those who don't follow the Old Testament are not His true disciples and are in danger of hearing, "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."

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that’s the key word in all of this - true belief

Indeed.

In determining my mother's condition, I asked her if, when she dies, is she going to heaven. She said "I hope so". Bummer. She's darn close to fully surrendering to the truth though, and I am almost certain she'll ultimately be saved.

A couple recent themes in my considerations:

A brother in my Wednesday night group proposed that, in executing our duties as disciples, we can refer to Matthew chapter ten, when troubled about potential poor reception. If they don't receive you: move on. It's an uncomfortable notion, when considering folks like good friends and family members; to consider that your efforts are better spent elsewhere. Of course there's nothing saying that you have to abandon them, but you should weigh the pros and cons of continuing to expend the same energy.

I have also been considering the souls of folks in extremely prohibitive environments; countries in which Christians are thoroughly persecuted today.

This website gives a good at-a-glance. The countries in red I'd assume would be highly dangerous for missionaries.

https://www.opendoorsus.org/en...rsecution/countries/

What does our faith tell us about these people? We were fortunate-enough to be born in a place where God's word is available, and largely encouraged; these folks weren't.

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Originally posted by KSGM:
In determining my mother's condition, I asked her if, when she dies, is she going to heaven. She said "I hope so". Bummer.

Why is that a bummer? It seems to me that it is a perfectly rational response to the question. As reloader-1 states, and as most (if not all) Catholics believe, none of us will know for sure until we stand in front of the big guy.

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She's darn close to fully surrendering to the truth though, and I am almost certain she'll ultimately be saved.

I'm curious what you mean by this. Are you suggesting that as a Catholic she doesn't have the truth?

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Originally posted by KSGM:
In determining my mother's condition, I asked her if, when she dies, is she going to heaven. She said "I hope so". Bummer.

Pretty similar to this:

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Originally posted by 12131:
I will know for sure on Judgment Day, and that is my God honest answer.

As for that open door map... Maybe? Kazakhstan is about 25% Christian - the Golden Horde has been about 25% Christian since Genghis Khan.

The government is, aggressively, secular. It is a nation in a high rate of flux, and Christianity, especially Protestant Christianity, should be there, aggressively.

They aren't really committed to anything, but Saudis are bankrolling a lot, to cause trouble, same as they did in Afghanistan/they are having an influx of problems.

My comments about my mother relate directly to the OP. The OP was created because I was raised Catholic, and didn't understand what the Baptist church was telling me about salvation. Now that I better understand, the Baptist attitude is something I embrace. Had I stayed in the Catholic faith, I may have better understood through their doctrine. The Baptist doctrine seems more approachable to me; less nuanced.

It was a "bummer" for me to hear her answer, because it implies that she is not currently saved. If you "truly believe", the answer to the question posed is "yes". John 3:16-18 says as much.

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I'm curious what you mean by this. Are you suggesting that as a Catholic she doesn't have the truth?

She has a bible; she has the truth. Whether she has a belief in it is the question. I think her answer to the question was influenced by the Catholic church's stress on works. She "hopes" she's been a good-enough worker to have earned her way. There's no earning it; it's through belief, grace, trust, and love that salvation is achieved.

I am glad the conversation has steered back toward the intent of the OP.

Though I am also curious as to others' outlook on the two other notions posed in my recent post.

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It was a "bummer" for me to hear her answer, because it implies that she is not currently saved. If you "truly believe", the answer to the question posed is "yes". John 3:16-18 says as much.

I don't know your mother, but I wouldn't say that she is not currently saved. She didn't tell you that she does not "truly believe". I think she's just being honest. We will all find out on Judgment Day.

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Originally posted by KSGM:

It was a "bummer" for me to hear her answer, because it implies that she is not currently saved. If you "truly believe", the answer to the question posed is "yes". John 3:16-18 says as much.

I think you might be in the “angels dancing on the head of a pin” territory here.

Your faith and belief requires you to accept Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior, and if you do so with full faith and conviction, you are saved; in other words, you have attained Heaven, and know that on Judgement Day, you will be found worthy of entering into the kingdom of God. Once that is done, to think that you are not saved, or to have uncertainty, would be foolish and unwise; your salvation is assured.

Her faith and belief requires her to accept Jesus Christ as her personal lord and savior, and if she does so with full faith and conviction, and her conduct reflects that faith, she will be saved. She has not attained Heaven here on Earth, and she awaits Judgement Day to determine if she will be found worthy of entering into the kingdom of Heaven. For her, to think that her judgement is assured, or to have certainty, would be arrogant and foolish; her salvation rests with Jesus and his mercy.



I’ll give you the analogy of a parent - we can, with full faith and conviction, decide and desire to be the best parents on this planet; through our actions and our intentions, our children will be impacted. However, we can never truly know if we are doing the absolute best thing, only that we did our best (and yet, we are human, and our best is imperfect). Ultimately, we have to trust that we did enough to be good parents for our children.