quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
About all this gatekeeping and people arguing about who is the "proper" and "correct" Christian here...GOOD LORD! Literally.

He's gotta be doing this looking at all of us:

I love how this part of the Bible is absolutely ignored (thanks to Rey HRH):

Romans 14:5-6 "One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God."


Jesus gives us the gift of salvation, all we have to do is follow him, obey the 10 Commandments and love one another.

As Paul says, if your interpretation is to eat something or not, or one day is more holy than another, you are doing it for the Lord.

Just don’t bitch at someone else for having a different viewpoint…

Romans 14 in its entirety is the cure for every “Christian” religious argument.

@mark123:

Do you have a church/Bible Study/etc? Someplace where “two or more are gathered?”

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
I'll take your question at face value and assume you're asking sincerely and not simply trying to use the Socratic method.

I'll also use your belief - "it matters what scripture says" - as the basis for how I answer your question. I'll also assume you are able to go beyond a cursory reading of the Bible as you said so.

You ask, "When Jesus said, 'make disciples of all nations,' what did He mean?

I also believe that what scripture says is what matters especially in the passages where it appears to be plan speaking. We can take the message at face value. .

quote:

Matthew 28:16 - 20
But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated to them. And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

I believe this is one of those places where the Bible is speaking clearly for itself. The grammar is there and I've bolded and highlighted the part that indicates what Jesus meant when He said to make disciples of all nations.

Here are some of what Jesus commanded them and taught them about being a disciple:

Matthew 4:19 "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of people.”

John 8:31 "To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, 'If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.'"

John 13:35 "By this all people will know that you are My disciples: if you have love for one another.”

John 15:8 "My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples."

And that's what the disciples did; the disciples went and made disciples of people who weren't disciples. Acts 14:20-22 "But while the disciples stood around him (Paul), he got up and entered the city. The next day he left with Barnabas for Derbe. And after they had preached the gospel to that city and had made a good number of disciples, they returned to Lystra, to Iconium, and to Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith"

Do those passages give you an understanding of what Jesus meant when He said, "Go and make disciples of all the nations?" Or are you skeptical that those passages don't mean what they plainly say what it means for a disciple to make another disciple?

That is: believe Jesus, follow Jesus, follow what He taught, love one another, bear fruit, and make disciples by sharing the gospel and building them up in the faith so that they can go make disciples also. It's a multiplication exponential effort. That's how you make disciples of all the nations and what Jesus meant. And, don't worry. He started the work and he'll finish the work also. Our part is in the middle.

You may assume that I’m using the Socratic method. I’ve never heard that term before but that’s what I’m doing.

I’m asking what discipleship means. There was no New Testament scripture at the time. So what was the basis for the discipline? You’re right to say follow what He taught. What did Jesus teach from as was His custom? Where did he do his teaching? Where did the disciples do their teaching? This is what I’m getting at. What was “all that I commanded you”.

Here's how the Socratic method works: you ask a question to the person you are trying to teach something. The one whom you are teaching answers. Then you point out what is incorrect in the student's answer.

You asked a question. I answered. If I am incorrect in how I answered your question, then please lay out your argument that shows how my answer is incorrect. You don't just continue asking questions past my answers. That's not the Socratic method; that's more like stonewalling or evading the topic. You point out there was no New Testament scripture at the time as if that means we don't know what discipleship means or what Jesus commanded you? But, please, before you answer this last question, please point out any disagreements you have with the answer I have given you, specify the nature of your disagreement and lay out your argument that supports your position.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rey HRH,

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
@Mark123, would you distinguish between the cross and the Star of David?

Ehhh, not really. It represents rabbinical judaism much the same that the cross represents catholicized Christianity. Some prefer to call it the Shield of Solomon or the Star of Remphan.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
LCMS has a weird mix - some people genuflect to the cross - which I can see as being perceived as a bit weird - others don’t.

As for the use of imagery, some people process that way.

Some people are more reachable by music, others by word, others by image.

Well, yeah. That's my point. When the Romans opened the inner veil it was because they wanted to see what the Hebrew religion was all about. They look and saw nothing and thought the Israelites were absolutely out of their minds. But the entire bible is full of commands toward imageless worship. It's purposely devised to reject an image or the need for one.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
Many Gothic structures have a rather horrible origin, and yet, I think they were created by men, out of faith, and I think that comes through.

Now, maybe it is part because I found a lot of peace in the LCMS, but I have a fondness for the Lutheran Rose, and its links to the liberation of man, but I don’t think there’s any sense of worship.

The Amish are radically against imagery, but they carve scriptures into many of their buildings. I plan to decorate some of my house and work with some as well - but it’s not worship, it’s a reminder.

Even the Amish mix witchcraft into their religion with the hex symbols or whatever they call it.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
I suppose originally, Easter observation was mixed with Passover - and it’s called Passover in most languages, TMK, but it’s a celebration of THE event in Christianity.

And, I’m way out of my depth here, but I think it is THE Passover. The blood of The Lamb has washed all of us, and the Angel of Death passes over all of us, forever.

I’m not too sure when the Rites of Spring started getting mixed into celebrating the Resurrection. I get that part being odd, and Christmas is very odd, but there is something or other I forgot about cleansing culture traditions of their demonic nature and using them for His Glory.

EG, when witnessing to a culture where men and women don’t mix, in public, let them sit on separate sides of the church/take their shoes off, etc.

Yes, yes. That's it. I believe we are to celebrate the Passover in the sense that it foreshadowed Jesus' work. Not in the typical Jewish Seder but in the biblical sense.

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:
I love how this part of the Bible is absolutely ignored (thanks to Rey HRH):

Romans 14:5-6 "One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God."

In context that was specifically referring to the tradition of fasting days. It's sort of not pertinent to the topic of keeping the sabbath holy.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:
I will say this:
This thread started out as a celebration of Christianity of sorts and seems to be devolving into petty squabbling over relatively minor differences.

I didn't take anyone's questions or comments as squabbling. I also don't find fundamental differences to be petty.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
I'll take your question at face value and assume you're asking sincerely and not simply trying to use the Socratic method.

I'll also use your belief - "it matters what scripture says" - as the basis for how I answer your question. I'll also assume you are able to go beyond a cursory reading of the Bible as you said so.

You ask, "When Jesus said, 'make disciples of all nations,' what did He mean?

I also believe that what scripture says is what matters especially in the passages where it appears to be plan speaking. We can take the message at face value. .

quote:

Matthew 28:16 - 20
But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated to them. And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

I believe this is one of those places where the Bible is speaking clearly for itself. The grammar is there and I've bolded and highlighted the part that indicates what Jesus meant when He said to make disciples of all nations.

Here are some of what Jesus commanded them and taught them about being a disciple:

Matthew 4:19 "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of people.”

John 8:31 "To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, 'If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.'"

John 13:35 "By this all people will know that you are My disciples: if you have love for one another.”

John 15:8 "My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples."

And that's what the disciples did; the disciples went and made disciples of people who weren't disciples. Acts 14:20-22 "But while the disciples stood around him (Paul), he got up and entered the city. The next day he left with Barnabas for Derbe. And after they had preached the gospel to that city and had made a good number of disciples, they returned to Lystra, to Iconium, and to Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith"

Do those passages give you an understanding of what Jesus meant when He said, "Go and make disciples of all the nations?" Or are you skeptical that those passages don't mean what they plainly say what it means for a disciple to make another disciple?

That is: believe Jesus, follow Jesus, follow what He taught, love one another, bear fruit, and make disciples by sharing the gospel and building them up in the faith so that they can go make disciples also. It's a multiplication exponential effort. That's how you make disciples of all the nations and what Jesus meant. And, don't worry. He started the work and he'll finish the work also. Our part is in the middle.

You may assume that I’m using the Socratic method. I’ve never heard that term before but that’s what I’m doing.

I’m asking what discipleship means. There was no New Testament scripture at the time. So what was the basis for the discipline? You’re right to say follow what He taught. What did Jesus teach from as was His custom? Where did he do his teaching? Where did the disciples do their teaching? This is what I’m getting at. What was “all that I commanded you”.

Here's how the Socratic method works: you ask a question to the person you are trying to teach something. The one whom you are teaching answers. Then you point out what is incorrect in the student's answer.

You asked a question. I answered. If I am incorrect in how I answered your question, then please lay out your argument that shows how my answer is incorrect. You don't just continue asking questions past my answers. That's not the Socratic method; that's more like stonewalling or evading the topic. You point out there was no New Testament scripture at the time as if that means we don't know what discipleship means or what Jesus commanded you? But, please, before you answer this last question, please point out any disagreements you have with the answer I have given you, specify the nature of your disagreement and lay out your argument that supports your position.

For my question to "disciples of what?" I intended to lead you to come to the conclusion that the apostles all taught from the Tanakh. They were discipling their converts in the Torah in synagogues and various other places. To make a disciple meant to bring them to the things that Jesus taught and all those things were from the Old Testament. That's all I was saying. There isn't an abolishment of the old to bring in the new.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
@mark123:

Do you have a church/Bible Study/etc? Someplace where “two or more are gathered?”

The last time I attended a church service in person was 2017. However, my wife and I "attend" a regular church service virtually every sabbath with Tom Bradford at the Seed of Abraham Ministries in Merritt Island, Florida. He has a really good Torah Class that he goes through verse by verse. I do disagree with a few things he teaches but I support his ministry.

I do also try to watch videos and participate in discussions like this online. I watch things I don't necessarily agree with to see if they make a good point instead of just trying to stay in an echo chamber like I did before. It's uncomfortable but I decided to try my best to learn what I can.

I am actively looking for in person fellowship but many of the people that believe like I do on certain points have strange beliefs like if you don't say the name YHWH correctly then it's a horrible offense or even sinful. That gets tiring. Or other congregations call themselves messianic but it's just a bunch of guys doing jewish cosplay with tallits and kippahs. I find it silly.

quote:

Originally posted by FenderBender:

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:
Does your church have any of the following:
Crucifix
Cross
Venerable paintings
Statues
Xmas trees
Steeple
Baal staff

Does your church celebrate any of the following:
Spring rites
May Day
Valentine’s Day
Love month
Mardi Gras
Lent
Ash Wednesday
Palm Sunday
Good Friday
Easter
Saints day
Halloween
Christmas

I'm going to allow you to take another shot at that. Be informed that you don't understand what you're asking, and even though I told you, you also don't understand who your asking it of.

I’m not sure what I’m supposed to take another shot at. I’m not accusing you of anything, I’m asking yes or no questions.

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:
I love how this part of the Bible is absolutely ignored (thanks to Rey HRH):

Romans 14:5-6 "One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God."

In context that was specifically referring to the tradition of fasting days. It's sort of not pertinent to the topic of keeping the sabbath holy.

That’s your interpretation, and I’m glad we can both have different interpretations. That’s what makes Christianity wonderful, we are followers of Christ. You follow one way, and I am happy you do - for you desire to do your best, and love Jesus.

I do as well, and know that Jesus loves us both.

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:
I love how this part of the Bible is absolutely ignored (thanks to Rey HRH):

Romans 14:5-6 "One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God."

In context that was specifically referring to the tradition of fasting days. It's sort of not pertinent to the topic of keeping the sabbath holy.

That’s your interpretation, and I’m glad we can both have different interpretations. That’s what makes Christianity wonderful, we are followers of Christ. You follow one way, and I am happy you do - for you desire to do your best, and love Jesus.

I do as well, and know that Jesus loves us both.

i see where you’re coming from. I never meant to upset anyone. But the command to make disciples is what I’m trying to do. However, I’ve learned here that the way that I learn, by answering questions that I ask myself, does not translate to explaining my position. In real life my wife is my translator as I don’t communicate properly. I appreciate you guys.

A) Amish don’t do hexes. That’s a “Gay Dutch” thing.

B) They aren’t witchcraft. There’s a bunch of “weirdos” who are not PA Dutch who try to bring all kinds of BS into them. It’s just Fraktur art.

Some of them have Christian origins, but there’s no witchcraft in the traditional ones.

Ones that the neopagans come up with…. Maybe. Hard to explain. They “feel” weird when I see them.

@Mark123, are you Jewish? I get messianic Judaism for Jews. It seems to be an unusual position to take for a non-Jew. A friend, and Jewish convert, is a Messianic Jew, and feels more comfortable there, but sees Christ as the completion of Judaism. She didn’t think of Messianic Judaism as being the “true” form of Christianity, but felt compatible with the Jewish Traditions she grew up with.

Also, in person fellowship and communion are a requirement, as far as I understand. I couldn’t really find fellowship in Miami. I met Christians, but couldn’t really bond to that community the way I bonded to the community in Texas and Charleston.

Frankly, if you have to move to find fellowship, do it. There may be times to be a missionary, and times to grow in a nurturing environment. Right now, I’m in the church I need to be in, as I learn to be a husband and a father.

CS Lewis wrote about the danger of becoming a connoisseur of Christianity, rather than going to the parish church with your community.

I understand not compromising on fundamentals - abortion/homosexuality/sola scriptura, etc - but we are meant to live in a community of believers.

quote:

CS Lewis wrote about the danger of becoming a connoisseur of Christianity, rather than going to the parish church with your community.

I understand not compromising on fundamentals - abortion/homosexuality/sola scriptura, etc - but we are meant to live in a community of believers.

+1. Totally agree.

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
[
Here's how the Socratic method works: you ask a question to the person you are trying to teach something. The one whom you are teaching answers. Then you point out what is incorrect in the student's answer.

You asked a question. I answered. If I am incorrect in how I answered your question, then please lay out your argument that shows how my answer is incorrect. You don't just continue asking questions past my answers. That's not the Socratic method; that's more like stonewalling or evading the topic. You point out there was no New Testament scripture at the time as if that means we don't know what discipleship means or what Jesus commanded you? But, please, before you answer this last question, please point out any disagreements you have with the answer I have given you, specify the nature of your disagreement and lay out your argument that supports your position.

For my question to "disciples of what?" I intended to lead you to come to the conclusion that the apostles all taught from the Tanakh. They were discipling their converts in the Torah in synagogues and various other places. To make a disciple meant to bring them to the things that Jesus taught and all those things were from the Old Testament. That's all I was saying. There isn't an abolishment of the old to bring in the new.

Mark, for me to be persuaded by you given your question, my answer, and your intent, you would have had to first lay out your argument as to how my answer is wrong and then to lay out an argument in support of what you are asserting: that Christians are still to obey the Old Testament in as much as they can.

First, I'm not saying what the Seed of Abraham Fellowship is teaching is wrong; it's a messianic fellowship. I don't know if Tom Bradford, its founder, has a Jewish background but I have followed and supported other messianic fellowships whose founders come from Jewish backgrounds such as Ariel Ministries led by Arnold Fruchtenbaum and, more famously, Jews for Jesus. The point is, Messianic Fellowships are simply another flavor of Christianity just like Lutheran, Baptist, etc. No denomination, no local church will have everything perfect; the church is still comprised by imperfect sinners including its human leaders.

You said, "I never meant to upset anyone. But the command to make disciples is what I’m trying to do." I take it that in your participation in this thread, you were trying to follow the command to make disciples. But, for the most part, the people participating in this thread are already disciples. The command to make disciples, first and foremost, is to make believers out of non-believers; it's not to make other believers do things as you do or, more specifically, make other believers follow the Old Testament or the Tanakh as best as they can. You have to know that's not what the vast majority of saved Christians believe. They are no less Christians than you because of that belief nor are they any less disciples as you are.

I understand your position is that Christians should follow the Old Testament as much as possible which is why you observe the Sabbath. You make exceptions for the things that cannot be followed such as sacrifices because there is no temple at this time. I'm going to ask you some questions, not to mock you, but to challenge how committed you are to following the Old Testament laws that are still possible to follow: Do you make sure you're not wearing garments made of different fabrics (Leviticus 19:19)? Do you make sure you're not cooking or causing anyone else to cook on the Sabbath because cooking is working (Exodus 20:8)? Do you make sure your hairline is not rounded and the edges of your beard remain untrimmed (Leviticus 19:27)? I assume you follow all the dietary prohibitions against pork, shellfish, and other unclean animals but are all the males in your household including yourself have been circumcised (Genesis 17:10-12)? I bring these up because these are certainly commandments that are not impossible to follow, right? But if you're not all of them then you'll understand what Jesus was saying when he said of those who would be religious authorities, "They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as their finger."

When you consider whether Christians should still follow the Old Testament commandments, you are unable to take out the idea as part of your presuppositions so it becomes a logical fallacy of circular reasoning that you commit. I bring up Galatians 3:24 again, "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." Since the law was our tutor and we are no longer under a tutor, then we are no longer under the law. There's no getting around that.

Law = Tutor
no longer under a tutor = no longer under the law.

I'm not saying you shouldn't try to follow the Old Testament if that's what you believe will please God; I'm saying other believers not part of your local congregation are under any obligation to follow the Old Testament as you are and you shouldn't make them. It'd be that same thing as a Pentecostal trying to convince a Baptist that he should speak in tongues. Saved Christians can be found in either persuasion. They're both to work to sharing the gospel and making non-believers be believers.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
A) Amish don’t do hexes. That’s a “Gay Dutch” thing.

B) They aren’t witchcraft. There’s a bunch of “weirdos” who are not PA Dutch who try to bring all kinds of BS into them. It’s just Fraktur art.

Some of them have Christian origins, but there’s no witchcraft in the traditional ones.

Ones that the neopagans come up with…. Maybe. Hard to explain. They “feel” weird when I see them.

Some of them told me that they "ward off evil spirits". They could have been messing with me and thought it was funny. (shrug)

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
@Mark123, are you Jewish? I get messianic Judaism for Jews. It seems to be an unusual position to take for a non-Jew. A friend, and Jewish convert, is a Messianic Jew, and feels more comfortable there, but sees Christ as the completion of Judaism. She didn’t think of Messianic Judaism as being the “true” form of Christianity, but felt compatible with the Jewish Traditions she grew up with.

I'm not but I did once attend a Messianic Jewish sabbath. You'd be surprised that there are usually fewer jews than gentiles that wrap themselves up in the tallit and say "shalom" a lot. Seems to be common in Messianic Jew congregations that the gentiles outnumber the Jews by a huge margin.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
Also, in person fellowship and communion are a requirement, as far as I understand. I couldn’t really find fellowship in Miami. I met Christians, but couldn’t really bond to that community the way I bonded to the community in Texas and Charleston.

I do have friends, we do talk about it. We give each other prayer requests and such. The only thing I'm missing is a cup to throw money into.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
Frankly, if you have to move to find fellowship, do it. There may be times to be a missionary, and times to grow in a nurturing environment. Right now, I’m in the church I need to be in, as I learn to be a husband and a father.

I don't know, man. Every church I've been to has been a bunch of old men nursing on scriptural milk. I'm content starved, I guess. I'm really weary of ear ticklers and seeker-friendliness.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
CS Lewis wrote about the danger of becoming a connoisseur of Christianity, rather than going to the parish church with your community.

I understand not compromising on fundamentals - abortion/homosexuality/sola scriptura, etc - but we are meant to live in a community of believers.

I do understand where you're coming from but I just can't do it at a place that purposely rubs my nose in doctrine and laughs after doing it.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
Mark, for me to be persuaded by you given your question, my answer, and your intent, you would have had to first lay out your argument as to how my answer is wrong and then to lay out an argument in support of what you are asserting: that Christians are still to obey the Old Testament in as much as they can.

Yes, I understand what you mean. I don't communicate that way. I know my shortcomings and will try to overcome them.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
First, I'm not saying what the Seed of Abraham Fellowship is teaching is wrong; it's a messianic fellowship. I don't know if Tom Bradford, its founder, has a Jewish background but I have followed and supported other messianic fellowships whose founders come from Jewish backgrounds such as Ariel Ministries led by Arnold Fruchtenbaum and, more famously, Jews for Jesus. The point is, Messianic Fellowships are simply another flavor of Christianity just like Lutheran, Baptist, etc. No denomination, no local church will have everything perfect; the church is still comprised by imperfect sinners including its human leaders.

I do believe my position is beyond a denominational difference though.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
You said, "I never meant to upset anyone. But the command to make disciples is what I’m trying to do." I take it that in your participation in this thread, you were trying to follow the command to make disciples. But, for the most part, the people participating in this thread are already disciples. The command to make disciples, first and foremost, is to make believers out of non-believers; it's not to make other believers do things as you do or, more specifically, make other believers follow the Old Testament or the Tanakh as best as they can. You have to know that's not what the vast majority of saved Christians believe. They are no less Christians than you because of that belief nor are they any less disciples as you are.

I suppose that's my entire point. How can you be a disciple if you're not disciplined in a prescribed way? I'm saying that to "walk as Jesus walked" means to walk in Torah as the rules of His way.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
I understand your position is that Christians should follow the Old Testament as much as possible which is why you observe the Sabbath. You make exceptions for the things that cannot be followed such as sacrifices because there is no temple at this time. I'm going to ask you some questions, not to mock you, but to challenge how committed you are to following the Old Testament laws that are still possible to follow:

Do you make sure you're not wearing garments made of different fabrics (Leviticus 19:19)?

I think that's out of context as it's talking about illicit mixtures. In that case not to wear garments of the priests which were mixed in the way proscribed for others. I worked that out in the past and I'd have to work it out again.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
Do you make sure you're not cooking or causing anyone else to cook on the Sabbath because cooking is working (Exodus 20:8)?

On sabbath I don’t work and no one works for me. I will do good things. I will help a person in need. I will save s life.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRHo you make sure your hairline is not rounded and the edges of your beard remain untrimmed (Leviticus 19:27)?

I think that is also out of context as it is concerning morning rituals of the surrounding Canaanite communities. Don't mar your beard or hair for the dead is what it's getting at.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
I assume you follow all the dietary prohibitions against pork, shellfish, and other unclean animals but are all the males in your household including yourself have been circumcised (Genesis 17:10-12)?

Yes, but that's Abrahamic and not Mosaic. There’s a distinction that we’d have to work out and is specifically not sinful for gentiles.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
I bring these up because these are certainly commandments that are not impossible to follow, right? But if you're not all of them then you'll understand what Jesus was saying when he said of those who would be religious authorities, "They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as their finger."

He was specifically talking about the minutia that the pharisees added to the law. Much like the meat and cheese thing that persists today. They had added distances to the length of walking you could do on a sabbath, they added hand washing rituals before meals, they added restrictions to eating with gentiles. There were just heavy burdens that they commanded but following Torah wasn't one of those things. Jesus and his disciples all followed Torah.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
When you consider whether Christians should still follow the Old Testament commandments, you are unable to take out the idea as part of your presuppositions so it becomes a logical fallacy of circular reasoning that you commit. I bring up Galatians 3:24 again, "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." Since the law was our tutor and we are no longer under a tutor, then we are no longer under the law. There's no getting around that.

Well, that's just it. I find that it solves circular reasoning. It also solves the contradiction of Matthew 5:17. I guess I just don't understand how a new Christian doesn't need a tutor. We're just told to live like Christ without knowing how he lived? I can't figure that in my head. Paul was addressing the false teachers that said faith comes by the law. But it’s the other way around. It’s all out of context though. The whole thing is dealing with the action of dealing with transgression through the sacrificial system. Regardless, we can’t make the point using one verse.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
Law = Tutor
no longer under a tutor = no longer under the law.

I'm not saying you shouldn't try to follow the Old Testament if that's what you believe will please God; I'm saying other believers not part of your local congregation are under any obligation to follow the Old Testament as you are and you shouldn't make them. It'd be that same thing as a Pentecostal trying to convince a Baptist that he should speak in tongues. Saved Christians can be found in either persuasion. They're both to work to sharing the gospel and making non-believers be believers.

I'm saying that without being a protege of Torah and the prophets, you won't see that there is syncretism in your church or beliefs and I just don't want any of you to hear "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."


For clarity, I honestly and truly believe that celebrating easter is worshiping the wrong god. I believe that celebrating christmas is celebrating the wrong god. And that is much different from simply sinning, it’s idolatry/adultry/disloyalty.

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For clarity, I honestly and truly believe that celebrating easter is worshiping the wrong god. I believe that celebrating christmas is celebrating the wrong god. And that is much different from simply sinning, it’s idolatry/adultry/disloyalty.

When I celebrate Easter, I am celebrating the resurrection of Christ. When I celebrate Christmas, I am celebrating His birth. I think someone already mentioned that those holidays, despite their origin, have been "liberated" and repurposed by Christians. If I chose to celebrate those events on different days, and give them different names, would that be OK, in your opinion? I appreciate your continued contributions, Mark.

All others are also very appreciated: Rey, Aglifter, Chellim, Reloader, etc.

Well said below, Reloader.

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Originally posted by mark123:
For clarity, I honestly and truly believe that celebrating easter is worshiping the wrong god. I believe that celebrating christmas is celebrating the wrong god. And that is much different from simply sinning, it’s idolatry/adultry/disloyalty.

Mark, you are my Sigforum brother (and I hope that it is ok to refer you as that!). I appreciate and understand your beliefs, and I especially admire how you phrased it as “I honestly and truly believe”.

That’s the key point; that is your belief, and that is sacred. For you to celebrate Easter, would be to sin. I will defend you in this, just as for our Jewish brothers to “believe” in Jesus would be a sin for many of them.

God has given us a conscience, and we all do our best to follow him. You are doing that, and your heart is in a good place. Keep striving for God, and he will always show His love.

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:
For clarity, I honestly and truly believe that celebrating easter is worshiping the wrong god. I believe that celebrating christmas is celebrating the wrong god. And that is much different from simply sinning, it’s idolatry/adultry/disloyalty.

What do you mean by 'wrong god'? Are you saying that we shouldn't celebrate or commemorate the incarnation of the Lord Jesus Christ at all or are you speaking about how many people celebrate Christmas by indulging in consumerism and making it about Christmas trees, lights, gifts, etc. or are you saying there is an actual other god that people are worshipping on Christmas?

I cannot speak for mark123, but this is what Microsoft AI Copilot has to say about one question:

“The name ‘Easter’ is believed to derive from ‘Eostre’ or ‘Ostara,’ a Germanic goddess of spring and fertility.”

One very devout Christian relative objects to the “Easter” name and prefers to call it “Resurrection Sunday,” which seems more appropriate even to me.

There is likewise no biblical basis for Christ’s birthday being 25 December, and many people believe that that date was chosen by early Christians to take advantage of the popularity of older very common celebrations surrounding Sun worship and the winter solstice when the days started getting longer and the cycle of winter’s coming to an end was beginning.