I wonder if there is ever a point at which one's admirable behavior is completely eclipsed by aggregate subsequent behaviors. If that is possible, it seems like that standard would be conditional. How great was previous behavior and for how long? How awful was subsequent behavior and for how long? I imagine that standard would be different for each individual considering the former hero.

I guess my point is that for Trump, it appears the aggregate has already eclipsed McCain's sacrifices. If I consider the damage McCain has done to individual liberty and the constitution, I am close to where Trump is, though I would have been more delicate in my disgust.

All this shows to me is that Trump is volatile. Volatility, while interesting to watch and occasionally useful, can be dangerous. It can move from servant to master instantaneously.

quote:

Originally posted by justjoe:
McCain's time as a POW is open to question and controversy. Check out the "Vietnam Vets Against McCain" videos on YouTube.

There have long been questions about his conduct as a POW and whether or not he collaborated. I don't know that I can, in good conscience, disparage that because I have no idea what I'd do while being tortured for five years. I'd like to think that I am a name, rank, and serial number kind of guy, but I'd bet that one's perspective changes a bit when your shoulders are being ripped out of joint.

I'm more troubled with the fact that McCain has made it his personal mission since he joined the Senate to put the kibosh on any and all efforts to locate and retrieve POWs and MIAs from Vietnam. Unless there is some Stockholm Syndrome going on, this, from a former POW, makes no sense whatsoever. In fact, it is disgraceful.

In a nutshell, the guy is a POS, up one side and down the other.

None of the above should be taken to mean that I support that childish clown Trump, and the sooner he goes away the better.

quote:

Originally posted by oddball:The guy just recently called out thousands of his constituents in his home state and labeled them all as "crazies" for attending a speech by Trump.

Any examples of McCain being irrational?

McCain has a long history of temper tantrums and irrational behavior reported by everyone who knows him.

http://archive.azcentral.com/m...s/Blog/ron4333/21042

http://www.washingtonpost.com/.../AFDUddtE_story.html

Trump’s donation history shows Democratic favoritism

By Dan Eggen and T.W. Farnam April 26, 2011

Billionaire Donald J. Trump, an early presidential favorite among tea party activists, has a highly unusual history of political contributions for a prospective Republican candidate: He has given most of his money to the other side.

The real estate mogul and “Celebrity Apprentice” host has made more than $1.3 million in donations over the years to candidates nationwide, with 54 percent of the money going to Democrats, according to a Washington Post analysis of state and federal disclosure records.

Recipients include Senate Majority Leader Harry M. Reid (Nev.), former Pennsylvania governor Edward G. Rendell, and Rahm Emanuel, a former aide to President Obama who received $50,000 from Trump during his recent run to become Chicago’s mayor, records show. Many of the contributions have been concentrated in New York, Florida and other states where Trump has substantial real estate and casino interests.

The donations provide another view into the odd political spectacle surrounding Trump, who may be the most unlikely of possible GOP presidential hopefuls in an already eclectic field. Although candidates such as Mitt Romney and Tim Pawlenty have spent years carefully crafting and plotting a White House run, the tycoon and fixture of the New York tabloids has leapt onto the scene with loud proclamations and surprisingly strong poll numbers among likely Republican voters.

The iconoclastic developer and television personality is attempting to appeal to social conservatives, even with a record of failed marriages and earlier statements in favor of abortion rights. His attacks on Obama have focused on conspiracy theories about the president’s birth in Hawaii that make many Republican leaders nervous. And Trump is considering a run for the nomination in an increasingly conservative Republican Party, despite years of donations to prominent Democrats.

None of which has stopped him from forging ahead with a potential candidacy, including a scheduled trip on Wednesday to the early primary state of New Hampshire.

The Democratic recipients of Trump’s donations make up what looks like a Republican enemies list, including former senator Hillary Rodham Clinton (N.Y.), Sen. John F. Kerry (Mass.), Rep. Charles B. Rangel (N.Y.), Sen. Charles E. Schumer (N.Y.) and the late liberal lion Edward M. Kennedy (Mass.).

The biggest recipient of all has been the Democratic Senate Campaign Committee of New York, which has taken in more than $125,000 from Trump and his companies. Overall, Trump has given nearly $600,000 to New York state campaigns, with more than two-thirds going to Democrats.

His representatives did not respond to requests for comment Tuesday. But Trump said in a recent interview that he had relatively few Republican options in an overwhelmingly blue state.

“Everyone’s Democratic,” he told Fox News in an interview about his potential candidacy. “So what am I going to do — contribute to Republicans? One thing: I’m not stupid. Am I going to contribute to Republicans for my whole life when they get heat when they run against some Democrat and the most they can get is 1 percent of the vote?”

His Democratic generosity is hardly confined to New York, however. Trump has given more than $250,000 to federal candidates and campaigns, including more than $100,000 to the party’s House and Senate campaign committees. He donated $10,400 to Reid, including for his 2010 battle with Sharron Angle, the GOP nominee and tea party favorite.

Ron Bonjean, a GOP consultant and former Capitol Hill aide, said that “it will be hard for him to spin his way out of direct campaign contributions” to Reid and other Democrats.

“In a Republican primary, it shows where your loyalty lies,” said Bonjean, who has not signed on with a GOP presidential candidate. “He may be giving this money to Democrats because it helps his business, but it will be a big deal to Republican primary voters.”

While favoring Democrats, Trump has donated more than $600,000 to Republicans as well, including Sen. John McCain (Ariz.), the party’s 2008 presidential nominee, whom Trump first supported in 1998.

He gave $95,000 to the Republican Governors Association for its record-breaking electoral push in 2010, and he has donated more than $80,000 to the three national GOP political committees in the past two decades. Individual Republicans supported by Trump include former congressman Tom DeLay (Tex.), former House speaker Newt Gingrich (Ga.) and former senator George Allen (Va.).

The data collected by The Post for this article does not include donations to outside interest groups. Last year, for instance, Trump gave $50,000 to American Crossroads, which supported Republican candidates in the midterm elections.

GOP political consultant Alex Castellanos said Trump’s contribution pattern is similar to the approach of many business leaders and corporations that divide their donations between the two parties. But to get through a Republican primary season, he added, “it doesn’t help to have that record.”

One of Trump’s biggest Democratic beneficiaries was Rendell, who received $32,000 from the mogul during his 2002 primary and general election campaigns to become Pennsylvania’s governor. Rendell, who favors abortion rights, was challenged in the Democratic primary by Bob Casey Jr., who opposes abortion.

When he considered a run for president in 2000 as a Reform Party candidate, Trump said he supported abortion rights. But he said last week that he now opposes the procedure except in cases of rape or incest or when the mother’s health is at risk.

In Pennsylvania, Rendell favored allowing slots gambling, and Trump waged a long and ultimately fruitless battle to secure a casino license in the state after the practice was legalized. He publicly lashed out at Rendell when an independent gaming board rejected the license application, calling Pennsylvania “a little too political of a state for me.”

The tycoon benefited from a Rendell decision to lift a moratorium on water development rights in Philadelphia, allowing a planned Trump Tower project to proceed. The luxury development has since been put on hold amid the economic downturn.

Rendell did not respond to a telephone message seeking comment Tuesday.

Former congressman Thomas M. Davis III (Va.), who served as chairman of the National Republican Congressional Committee, said Trump’s close ties to some Democrats would be “a huge obstacle, but it’s not insurmountable.” Trump, he added, would not be running as a “purity” candidate.

“Republicans are looking for a savior,” Davis said. “Here’s a guy who has succeeded outside politics and articulates the right vision. Sometimes that works. . . . It’s a long shot, but it’s not out of the bounds of possibility.”

It occurs to me that McCain is merely the hapless victim here.

To Trump, everybody is a great friend of his. He knows them all and respects them, but nobody can hope to do things as well as him, whether it is negotiate, accomplish, dream, execute, persuade..... all others are hopeless incompetents.

quote:

Originally posted by Southflorida-law:

quote:

Originally posted by oddball:The guy just recently called out thousands of his constituents in his home state and labeled them all as "crazies" for attending a speech by Trump.

Any examples of McCain being irrational?

No, more an example of his being a moron. You don't disparage your own constituency regardless they're behavior. Hell, most politicians grasp that intuitively.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
It occurs to me that McCain is merely the hapless victim here.

'Or', he's too brain dead to simply know to get out of the way of the bus. He's feeding right into the Trump machine by trading jabs with Trump and/or disparaging his constituency. A couple of the other GOP contestants have already learned to simply stay out of the ongoing fray.

quote:

Any examples of McCain being irrational?

No, more an example of his being a moron. You don't disparage your own constituency regardless they're behavior. Hell, most politicians grasp that intuitively.

Meet Dr. Kelli Ward, The Woman Running Against John McCain

https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...0601935/m/9720087483

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

Any examples of McCain being irrational?

No, more an example of his being a moron. You don't disparage your own constituency regardless they're behavior. Hell, most politicians grasp that intuitively.

Meet Dr. Kelli Ward, The Woman Running Against John McCain

https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...0601935/m/9720087483

Yes, I watched that video of her in that other thread and she 'appears' to be rather sharp. Let's hope she really is and sends ole Johnny to the old politicos home.

gotta kind of wonder though, where was Trump when McCain was serving in VietNAm ?

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:
Let's hope she really is and sends ole Johnny to the old politicos home.

Otherwise known as K Street.

quote:

Originally posted by bendable:
gotta kind of wonder though, where was Trump when McCain was serving in VietNAm ?

Three student deferrals and one medical (when the student deferrals expired) but Trump forgets which foot/leg was the cause of the medical.

Nice to have a rich daddy, ask Romney.

quote:

Originally posted by Southflorida-law:
Any examples of McCain being irrational?

here's a twofer, irrational and absurdly dishonest:

quote:

Originally posted by bendable:
gotta kind of wonder though, where was Trump when McCain was serving in VietNAm ?

Just because somebody didn't serve in Nam, doesn't make them less of a person. The country needed good people to run businesses at home while the war was on. Most men of that generation did not serve in Nam.

Stats from:

quote:

* 9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the Vietnam Era (August 5, 1964 - May 7, 1975).

* 2,709,918 Americans served in Vietnam, this number represents 9.7% of their generation.

* 3,403,100 (Including 514,300 offshore) personnel served in the broader Southeast Asia Theater (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, flight crews based in Thailand, and sailors in adjacent South China Sea waters).

* 2,594,000 personnel served within the borders of South Vietnam (Jan. 1,1965 - March 28, 1973). Another 50,000 men served in Vietnam between 1960 and 1964.

* Of the 2.6 million, between 1-1.6 million (40-60%) either fought in combat, provided close support or were at least fairly regularly exposed to enemy attack.

The vast majority of that generation did not serve in the military, and I shall not disparage them all for not serving. Of course, the draft dodgers can rot in hell, but not all those who did not serve were dodgers.


Trump is no idiot, so I have to believe he chose those words very purposefully. I respect McCain for his war service (he could have gotten out of POW camp with a simple signature, because the NVA knew his father was Commander of the Pacific Fleet (the Naval Command responsible for Asia), but he chose years of prison and torture instead). However, in public service, he is an old liberal fool and needs a boot out the door.

Trump didn't just insult McCain, though - he insulted ALL POWs. "I like people who weren't captured" is a smear against all who were taken prisoner. Often, it happened regardless of how good you were. SAMs and AA shot down more than just the careless or inept; and there was no shame to be taken prisoner.

Trump must know that, and must know how incendiary his statement would sound. It also made McCain look like a victim of an attack, for people to rally behind. One might almost think Trump was purposefully trying to HELP McCain.

This circus is sure putting the GOP in a good light.

quote:

"I like people who weren't captured" is a smear against all who were taken prisoner

No, it was a smear against McCain, and only McCain. You think Trump dislikes all veterans, specifically all POWs?

Every time I say how much I dislike bad cops on this forum, I am piled on by those who then accuse me of hating all cops. Same thing here. Too many people read too much into what is actually being said.

McCain did however call thousands of Americans "crazies". Is he an American hater?

Of course, everyone seems to have seriously misunderstood what Trump likely meant but did not clearly express, that McCain would not have achieved hero status he has if he had been like the other pilots in his A-4 squadron and other squadrons who flew the missions, never were shot down, came home and went on about their business.

Many regard those other pilots as heroes just as much, but without the experience of being a POW.

I don't care about McStain's war hero status one way or another, whether it's Trump smearing him or someone else.. Whatever McStain might have once been, he's a political shitbird now. Military service does not preclude being a fuckup (and there always were a large percentage of dumbshits in the military). To hell with McStain, any credit to his POW past has been overcharged to his current worthlessness. Plenty of former military heroes who don't feel the need to ride their past as an excuse for allowing their current failures. MCStain has become one of those very same type of politician that created the fucked-up ROE's during the Vietnam war that allowed for his captivity in the first place. Fuck Mr sensitive War hero for allowing the same type of political BS to happen under his watch as a politician.

IMHO the vast majority of higher O ranks are nothing but crappy politician's as it is, and I'm sure many of them have lots of medals on their chest to prove their current/previous war hero status. Doesn't mean shit anymore to me.. The same high-up officer's who caused all the constant garrison fuck-fuck games when I was still an enlisted Marine and they still make the type of BS decisions like "closing the blinds" to protect recruiters...

quote:

Originally posted by Xer0:
I don't care about McStain's war hero status one way or another, whether it's Trump smearing him or someone else.. Whatever McStain might have once been, he's a political shitbird now. Military service does not preclude being a fuckup (and there always were a large percentage of dumbshits in the military). To hell with McStain, any credit to his POW past has been overcharged to his current worthlessness. Plenty of former military heroes who don't feel the need to ride their past as an excuse for allowing their current failures. MCStain has become one of those very same type of politician that created the fucked-up ROE's during the Vietnam war that allowed for his captivity in the first place. Fuck Mr sensitive War hero for allowing the same type of political BS to happen under his watch as a politician.

IMHO the vast majority of higher O ranks are nothing but crappy politician's as it is, and I'm sure many of them have lots of medals on their chest to prove their current/previous war hero status. Doesn't mean shit anymore to me.. The same high-up officer's who caused all the constant garrison fuck-fuck games when I was still an enlisted Marine and they still make the type of BS decisions like "closing the blinds" to protect recruiters...

That's the point though.

I don't like McCain's politics. He was a poor nominee for president, and I won't vote fore him for that, or any other office.

But there are certain points that are off limits as far as I'm concerned.

The man served in the military in combat and by circumstance was subjected to a terrible thing. Anyone who questions that is either an idiot, pussy, or in denial.

If you want to question the man's politics, then so be it. I support it. We all should as he wants to represent us.

I won't EVER question the man's courage or service.

Trump didn't do that, or even come close. He wants to argue political points or ideology, then great. Trump wants to argue military service, or even ANY type of public service, then he needs to just shut up on that topic.

For the record, I never served, and regret it.

"Donald Trump is a first-rate ass clown, but...but dang, he's numero uno in the polls, at 24%; da' mo 'lectricity he gets, da mo he get stronger, like Gozilla.