quote:

Originally posted by Mars_Attacks:
The one I left, the "Music Minister" decided he had become a celebrity from all the popularity gained by the loud new music services, left his wife, took off with the pastor's sister and took a job at some bigger church.

Funny, he never let any others sing other than him either.

They discovered what he had done and immediately fired him. She left him, he lost everything and wound up robbing the bank where my niece worked.

Do you live in a David Lynch movie?

This is not a subject I'd normally comment on, but this song is what popped into my head when I read the thread title.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
You just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free
Hop on the bus, Gus
You don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free

quote:

Originally posted by selogic:
too much hypocrisy

I stopped attending organized church several decades ago. This is why.

This is not meant to be crass.

I'd walk out like John Wayne. Which likely means just never go back, and not volunteering an explanation.

Don't need to explain yourself to anyone. I understand there may be an image or community you are going to get retaliation from. But to me there's way more important things in life. If their tool is guilt, shame, ridicule, or consequence they are your enemy. They are likely weak. So it's best to become the opposite of them. Don't try to evade it, or hide from it, or escape it.....go right at it.

Walk away, and get stronger.

The Bible warns of 4 occupations. Doctors, Attorneys, Bankers, and Organized Religion.

I’m sorry you’re facing a dilemma like this. I’m not sure how your current church is set up but if there is a formal process to transfer membership to another church I would do so. It doesn’t sound like you’re leaving on bad terms. As others have stated congregations change as do our own individual spiritual needs as we each have our own relationship with God. According to the Bible we are placed in the body as is pleasing to God. The main thing is you’re going to continue to worship at another church rather than stay home on Sundays.

I attend a small Baptist church here in WV where I serve as a deacon. At each business meeting we ask the members of the church if they would like a letter of transfer (letter sent from the church clerk to the sister church’s clerk to be read at that church’s business meeting stating the person is in peace and fellowship and not leaving because of anger or other non Christlike issue) to a sister church (another Baptist church with fundamentally the same beliefs and church government). If someone wishes to transfer to another church that is not a sister church they ask that their name be taken off the church roll and they’re free to go join that church. In order to be a member you have to be saved and baptized, not necessarily at our church. Once accepted as a member each person has equal voice and voting rights in the church. Business meeting held monthly immediately following Sunday morning worship service and financial reports are read in front of everyone so everyone knows what’s going on and no one has a “higher position” than another member. The pastor presided over the business meeting and we follow a long establish form to conduct the business and it’s usually complete in 10-15 minutes unless there are church elections or new business.

The discussions that sound like you have to ask for and be granted an effective release from one church to "join" another is very interesting. I'd never even remotely considered that as a condition of either leaving or joining.

quote:

Originally posted by Mars_Attacks:
I am a complete apostate. Been so for 15 years now and don't miss it.

I didn't tell them, I just never went back.

They were the den of vipers your church has become and there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop this.

When senior pastor and leadership and subpastors and administrators are corrupt in one or more ways, the church more or less goes straight to hell, so to speak, and then changes and survives or gets rid of everyone and brings in a whole new younger more naive membership to once again perfect their corruption upon. Some leadership or subpastors may know something is wrong but have too much to lose personally to challenge their superiors. Sometimes things can get really bad, including covering up criminal offenses committed by leadership and administration, or committed by the church's more favored "Pet" parishioners and the like. Up to and including incest, rape, stuff like that. Those churces also hide their finances, refusing any visibility to parishoners who are not members of their cliques.

When churches get like that it's definitely time to leave. We went for several years to a church that had started out well, but became corrupt in all those areas described, after the founding pastors and members uprooted and moved across the country for a church plant. How that all got like that I'm not sure, but the signs were clear: Hyopocrisy, haughtiness, power, money and the ability to spend it notwithstaning legitimate needs and purposes (ie, buying tracts of land and real estate for reasons unkown and without anyones kmowledge), disregard for the true purpose of the chuch, that is to help and love people for where they're at and their walk with God, all the while having an air of godliness but without substance. I believe Jesus made a well justified ruckus over this level of corruption.

I don't understand how men of the cloth become like that, but it's probably the same reason any people in leadership beome corupt in any profession or walk in life.

When I left they wanted me to sign documents (I didn't sign anything), attend a meeting in a closed room with selected pastors with no accompanying witnesses (didn't go well), and other crap like that, after I had tried for some time to reason with them, finally revealing their sins to the rest of the congragation along with a few brave others more godly than I supporting but moderating that process. They also left after we did.

But in summary and in deference to what Mars said above, a den of vipers is pretty damn accurate. There is nothing about a den of vipers that relates in any way to God and godliness, it is what it is, and it's always a good time to leave unless God is asking you to stay to help in the good fight against evil.

UPDATE:

So we went for a second time to the new church we had been looking at and it just seemed to be that's where we are being called to. The new place is much smaller, less polished and more a mix of families and older people instead of very young families and lots of 20's and 30's. Its just felt "real" and not obsessed with image and being "perfect" like the current one seems to haven fallen into. We went back that night for a Welcome To Church Night they happened to have that night, had a meal and got to sit with other couples who were new there as well. Each table had a couple that were regulars at the new church who facilitated and answered questions etc.

We found out that this church actually has a chain of command with head pastor and assistant pastors and community pastors PLUS an actual Elder Board comprised of 6 people who serve for 3 years each. We really liked seeing this and realized that our current church isn't so much a "church" anymore as it is a slickly polished and run "production", a business really all about numbers. They seem to really have a focus on growing and nurturing the church body and not just getting new people in and then they become an afterthought to be used as free labor like the our current church.

As the head pastor spoke last night, it finally dawned on me how to go about exiting the old church and not burn bridges, all we need to do is call or email nicely and explain that we feel led by the Lord to move on and that's that.

quote:

As the head pastor spoke last night, it finally dawned on me how to go about exiting the old church and not burn bridges, all we need to do is call or email nicely and explain that we feel led by the Lord to move on and that's that.

if you feel the need to explain, then that seems like a reasonable way to communicate your exit.
Glad you found a place to worship that you are both comfortable with.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:

quote:

As the head pastor spoke last night, it finally dawned on me how to go about exiting the old church and not burn bridges, all we need to do is call or email nicely and explain that we feel led by the Lord to move on and that's that.

if you feel the need to explain, then that seems like a reasonable way to communicate your exit.
Glad you found a place to worship that you are both comfortable with.

We both feel like we owe the current pastor something and not just an Irish exit.

My wife has been going for 12 years and I have been for 10 now.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
UPDATE:

So we went for a second time to the new church we had been looking at and it just seemed to be that's where we are being called to.

At least you found a new place. When we were looking, it took us several weeks like two months, sometimes even going to two different services on Sundays.

The secret to continue liking your new church is the same way to continue liking sausages: don't get involved in making either. Go participate, go serve (I currently make sure the coffee makers always have water), and go invest some of your life into other people and allow other people to invest their lives in yours.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
We both feel like we owe the current pastor something and not just an Irish exit.

My wife has been going for 12 years and I have been for 10 now.

I hope you don’t regret it like I did. I continued to mow the church I grew up in long after I moved in to another church. I moved on because an interloper snaked his way into the pastor position when the long time pastor had a stroke. I talked to the guy saying I’ll continue because “I feel I owe a debt” meaning I was grateful to the church that set me on the right path in my youth but he turned it around. “A debt? How much? What do you owe the church? Give me a number.” This guy was seeing dollar signs. I ended up just cutting him off and never talked to the guy again.

Another update: we are settling into the new church and like it more and more each time we go.

Found out that they actually split off from a larger church nearby about 18 months ago that had gone off the deep end with the Covid masking and distancing and being afraid to re-open and bowing down to King Wolf's demands when he tried to keep churches closed, so everyone that wanted to re-open went and formed this new church and it's growing and growing.

We really like that it's got an actual structure with head pastor and assistant pastors and ELDERS as the Bible commands. Not ONE MAN at the top and a bunch of 20-something "employees" under him with no chain of command or no accountability as with the old church. I realize now how many times the old pastor would refer to the church as "HIS CHURCH, "MY CHURCH", me, me, me, me, I, I, I, I. Never "US" or "OUR" or "WE". It was like how Obama used to talk in speeches and only ever referred to himself. That's NOT good or a good sign, at ALL. All it took was for me to remove myself from it to finally see it.

We wrote up a nicely worded 2 paragraph email explaining why we felt led to move on, that it was a little closer to us and smaller/more intimate and nothing accusatory or mean or calling them out and sent it to the head (only) pastor there at the old church...and nothing. No "OK, sorry to see you go", not an "OK" not even an acknowledgment that he had received it. We dared to leave HIS precious church and now are persona non grata there. Oh well, I had warned my wife that I had expected this from that guy.


On with the new church and new beginnings! Our kids LOVE going there for Kids Church and they didn't act this way at the old one. So that's a really good sign.

Pleased your family is comfortable with the new arrangement.

flashguy

Glad it worked out well for you

the email sounds sketchy as in it might have gone straight to his spam folder. So, you're never really sure if he actually got the opportunity to read it.

I like the dinner with regulars at each table. That tells me they're really looking outward. Usually, the regulars will just sit and talk with themselves. Not that it's bad in itself since it's the natural thing that happens but, consciously setting up environments where new people can feel welcome and be a part sounds like you did find a good church.

Church splits usually end up with congregations with baggage but their reason seems pretty darn good. You want to be with people who think that way.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:


the email sounds sketchy as in it might have gone straight to his spam folder.

Both my wife and I have emailed and received email from this pastor numerous times before, so I highly doubt that.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
… We really like that it's got an actual structure with head pastor and assistant pastors and ELDERS as the Bible commands. …

As a growing Christian may I ask where a church hierarchy is commanded in the Bible. This would help me to weigh my local options.

Besides that, I’m glad you brought this thread back up because just yesterday I talked to a member of the church I left about 6 years ago. He was in my small group at that church and he asked if I was still attending. Regardless, we had a friendly chat and I just mentioned that I was dissatisfied that no one had answers to questions we have and we think much of the modern church has gone astray. He was taken aback and I think that’s ok. I challenged him with a couple of questions to prove or disprove biblically and we went our separate ways. We remained friendly and I’d talk with him again.

I was referring to church Elders, it's mentioned in the Bible several times by Paul and others as the early Church began.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
I was referring to church Elders, it's mentioned in the Bible several times by Paul and others as the early Church began.

what about head and assistant pastors? I just can’t seem to recall any person or group given authority over another.