I just left my church recently for a different reason. I was a volunteer in the AV booth. We had a security meeting and we were informed that volunteers were not allowed to carry a firearm. Liability issues. Fucking lawyers. Security wants us to throw things at the threat. Bullshit. I could still carry as a parishioner. But it was frowned on. So, I said goodbye. Broke my heart.

Thanks for all the input so far

quote:

Originally posted by YellowJacket:

Probably shouldn't be too concerned about the Pastor's haircut, either.

I could care less what haircut he has, it’s just that I’m noticing many of the guys on his staff have the same haircut and their sons as well. It’s just weird to me.

quote:

Originally posted by SIG4EVA:
I had something very similar happen with Elevation.

This church is very much a local smaller Elevation-like place. 4 services with 300 people per service. They’re actually expanding to seating for 550 per service as we speak and they’re all about getting you (sometimes feels like coercion in a nice way) on a “serve team” like parking, childcare, greeters, ushers, Safety (formerly Security but we were told that term was too “alarming”, this is where I’m twice a month).

quote:

Originally posted by Ironmike57:
I just left my church recently for a different reason. I was a volunteer in the AV booth. We had a security meeting and we were informed that volunteers were not allowed to carry a firearm. Liability issues. Fucking lawyers. Security wants us to throw things at the threat. Bullshit. I could still carry as a parishioner. But it was frowned on. So, I said goodbye. Broke my heart.

Yeah, that’s some BS right there, ESPECIALLY given how there’s been several high profile church active shooter incidents where armed staff/volunteers stopped the threat. I’d be outta there too!


I guess my biggest concern isn’t haircuts or if my BIL is allowed to sing or not or the increasingly awful worship music but the glaring fact that the head Pastor is THE ONLY Pastor at a church this size with no assistant pastors or deacons or anything like that, he’s only got staff and it’s all 20-something’s too. It’s a big red flag to me that I just can’t dismiss any longer.

Former member of a large mainstream denomination. Served as an elected elder, board of directors, president of the non-profit corporation, and was ordained to administer the sacrament as part of my personal ministry in serving the elderly in nursing facilities.

Couple of years spent in questioning church polity, always running into a stone wall. Questions about fund-raising events met with angry responses. Questions about audited financial reports showing more spent on 5-star luxury resorts and limo services than on any charitable cause, all met with stone-cold silence.

Interesting part of the standard worship liturgy was "announcements in the life of the church" in which anyone was invited to stand and speak. It took me about 3 minutes to explain why I was "shaking the dust of this place off my feet and following my Lord in another direction". Half the congregation followed me out to the parking lot, thanking me for speaking out, and most remain good friends.

The church in question has declined in membership to a point that it is in receivership, attempting to avoid bankruptcy proceedings. They have not had an ordained pastor for about 10 years, relying on lay ministers and active elders.

Unfortunately, many denominations and individual churches have become autocratic and dictatorial entities. I doubt that Jesus would recognize anything or anyone involved in the "business of religion" today.

quote:

Originally posted by Ironmike57:
I just left my church recently for a different reason. I was a volunteer in the AV booth. We had a security meeting and we were informed that volunteers were not allowed to carry a firearm. Liability issues. Fucking lawyers. Security wants us to throw things at the threat. Bullshit. I could still carry as a parishioner. But it was frowned on. So, I said goodbye. Broke my heart.

At my church, a HUGE number of folks carry concealed, including myself (of course), the pastor, the pastor's wife, piano/keyboard player, associate pastor, most of the deacons, etc. Not a legal issue whatsoever!

Good morning Bill,

It wasn't a legal issue. We had a handful that carried. It is now church policy that VOLUNTEERS cannot carry. The Pastor tried to make a Security position for me. He did not realize that I would need a D and G license.

I did not carry to protect the flock. I carried to protect myself and get home to my wife after service.

quote:

Originally posted by bronicabill:

quote:

Originally posted by Ironmike57:
I just left my church recently for a different reason. I was a volunteer in the AV booth. We had a security meeting and we were informed that volunteers were not allowed to carry a firearm. Liability issues. Fucking lawyers. Security wants us to throw things at the threat. Bullshit. I could still carry as a parishioner. But it was frowned on. So, I said goodbye. Broke my heart.

At my church, a HUGE number of folks carry concealed, including myself (of course), the pastor, the pastor's wife, piano/keyboard player, associate pastor, most of the deacons, etc. Not a legal issue whatsoever!

I am a complete apostate. Been so for 15 years now and don't miss it.

I didn't tell them, I just never went back.

They were the den of vipers your church has become and there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop this.

I agree with just leaving the church and not making a show of it. Find a smaller church that adheres to the Word and doesn’t bow down to the altar of church “growth”.

My church has an armed and trained security team that is composed of members.

quote:

Originally posted by SIG4EVA:
I had something very similar happen with Elevation.

This church is very much a local smaller Elevation-like place. 4 services with 300 people per service. They’re actually expanding to seating for 550 per service as we speak and they’re all about getting you (sometimes feels like coercion in a nice way) on a “serve team” like parking, childcare, greeters, ushers, Safety (formerly Security but we were told that term was too “alarming”, this is where I’m twice a month).

I served on the "safety" team at Elevation for years. I brought the same thing during one of our trainings and was told not to carry. We kept an officer in the lobby. I pocket carried my P938 and kept my mouth shut after that. I'm a greeter at my current church and love it. No need for a safety team. Let us know how it goes for you. It may seem like a massive leap, but its really just a transition to a different part of the body of Christ.

quote:

Originally posted by Ironmike57:
I just left my church recently for a different reason. I was a volunteer in the AV booth. We had a security meeting and we were informed that volunteers were not allowed to carry a firearm. Liability issues. Fucking lawyers. Security wants us to throw things at the threat. Bullshit. I could still carry as a parishioner. But it was frowned on. So, I said goodbye. Broke my heart.

I recently moved to Texas. My previous church had a fatal shooting in the past, and has a VERY comprehensive security/'safety' team (the only reason the body count wasn't higher is because the security team engaged the shooter). I was on this team for 2 years, and it was very gratifying work. We had armed and unarmed members, and our church also had a policy that NO ONE volunteering for the church could carry a weapon unless approved by the Security Team Lead. This was stated to the result of liability. As a Security Team Member, I was a de facto representative and agent of the church, and the church was directly (and financially) responsible for my actions. I understood this policy even though I didn't always like it.

They never authorized me to carry a weapon. I always figured that if another shooting occurred, I would be the first to die, since I wore a bright yellow 'security' vest and I was usually stationed in the main parking lot (I was usually the first security person people saw coming into the building). And, in this scenario, having a pistol would likely not prevent somebody from shooting me in the back anyway. . .

A lot of team members griped because they could carry concealed as a 'congregant,' but not as a 'volunteer.' A lot of people left the team for this reason. I eventually left due to personal reasons.

I did carry concealed in that church on occasion, but I was not on the team when I did so. It seems contradictory. They would 'trust' complete strangers to carry weapons, but would not 'trust' team members to do so. I can honestly see both sides of this argument.


So, yeah, I understand about personal issues at church. We left the church we were married in when I was stationed in Omaha. We felt God told us to leave. We found another really great church, and after the fact, learned about some shady stuff that took place at the previous church. We felt God was sparing us from being part of all that drama.

If you feel led to leave a church (and based on OP's post, there do seem to be a LOT of legit warning signs), you can just leave without making a scene or explaining why. Just move, and send your tithes/donations somewhere else. IF they reach out to you, then you can explain why (or not; it's not mandatory). Not every person will fit in at every church. There are so many styles that there really is a place for everybody. For example, my mother did not like the last church we attended, and I find hers to be dry and boring. To each his own. . .

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
I guess my biggest concern isn’t haircuts or if my BIL is allowed to sing or not or the increasingly awful worship music but the glaring fact that the head Pastor is THE ONLY Pastor at a church this size with no assistant pastors or deacons or anything like that, he’s only got staff and it’s all 20-something’s too. It’s a big red flag to me that I just can’t dismiss any longer.

You're saying he has staff but not assistant pastors? So I guess that means none of his staff are trained/educated/ordained/licensed ministers? And no church board of elders or executive team?

That is a very reasonable concern, especially for a non-denominational church with no oversight structure. I think it'd still be worth having a brief conversation with the pastor about it. You don't even have to mention anything about leaving... just ask him for clarification on the leadership structure of the church and/or the qualifications of leadership and staff. Express any concerns you may have about that. If it as you suspect, then I would feel pretty good leaving with no further discussion.

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As far as carrying when on an "official" team... it's just a liability issue. The church doesn't want to be on the hook for "authorizing" or "deputizing" someone to use lethal force. If you do it on your own, that's not their problem. It's a little counter-intuitive but makes sense from a legal point of view.

I stopped going to any church a long time ago. I realized all I was getting out of it was having one man telling me his one perspective on only his belief an how he saw faith.
I believe it's all relative to who you are as to what your relationship with your creator or creators is. You find that within yourself, not from a man with a microphone.

Two churches ago, we were there for about 12 years when the pastor retired. New pastor came in. He started hiring his family and in-laws. Changed the church decorations in the church that was newly built a year before. For two years, we continued heading the Greeters. After one Sunday service, walked up to the pastor and said we were going to be looking for a new church. We felt God was leading us to go elsewhere. I did tell him his greeting spiel helped planted the thought because he would always say, "Good morning. Welcome to Calvary Temple. Whether God calls you to be in this church or the church down the road or the church across town, He wants you to contribute your time, talent, and tithe to whichever church you're a part of."

Found another church across town where we stayed for another 12 years where I taught adult sunday school. When I was going to move to a different state, I said my good-bye. When I got here, started church shopping here and found one of several we went to. When I started, people would ask me what made me choose the church. I told them that God told me they needed all the help they can get.

I started volunteering Sundays between two services making sure the Kurig coffee makers had water in the tank, the table relatively clean, and picking up any trash left in the pews after each service.

So my point is that you can always say goodbye. Think whether airing any issues you have may actually do any good. Is what they're doing wrong that you can point in the bible? If so, sure, point it out. Other than the lack of board that the pastor is accountable to, I don't see anything in what you pointed out to be "sin." I'm not sure if having no board is a sin either; I wonder how he got to be pastor in the first place. But, in any case, it's not like you'll point out something they don't know they're doing, right? If you think you'll be able to make them change, sure, go ahead and tell them but I think you know the odds of that are pretty slim.

But feel free to leave if the church isn't a match for you anymore. No shame in that and it's not like you made a vow at any time to stay in the church.

My other point is that I do believe in what that prior pastor was saying. In whichever church God wants you to be a part of, he wants you to be contributing your time, talent, and tithes as part of that church. Church is about people but it's not like going to a movie theater and sitting next to strangers. It's about investing a part of your life into other people and allowing other people to invest part of their lives into yours. But, I'm sure you know this by way of your brother being part of the worship team.

quote:

Originally posted by YellowJacket:

quote:

Originally posted by selogic:
You don't owe anybody an explanation . You are not there to serve THEM . When a Church starts becoming more about the Church , and less about your spiritual needs then it's time to go . Meeting with the Pastor will go one of two ways . They will make you feel bad about wanting to leave and possibly talk you into staying OR it will turn ugly and you'll be the bad guy .
Just go and don't look back .

if you are not at your church to serve then YOU are doing it wrong.

You realize there's a third choice here, right?

I think that’s a tragically underemphasized aspect of the Church. It’s always “outreach” and almost never “nurture.”

I will never again be a member of an organized religion or " Church " . Too many bad experiences and too much hypocrisy . I don't criticize anyone that worships that way . If that works for you then so be it .

For those that have left a church, whether you are looking for another or not, I encourage you to stay in the word. I subscribe to these 3 youtube channels and they have helped me a lot.

Tom Bradford's Torah Class - He goes through the Torah and into the new testament helping you to understand what the Scriptures meant to those that wrote it and those it was addressed to. This is my favorite Bible-based youtube channel.

119 Ministries - Excellent explanations of Scripture with the invitation to test everything, especially the doctrine that you've been taught all your life.

The Bible Project - This stuff is great to watch. Everything is very well explained and it can open your eyes to details you may have missed.

My vote is to just leave and go enjoy the new church.

I've left churches before, did all the proper things "required" to Be Nice. It only made things worse.

Find a new church home and don't make excuses or try to explain it to anyone. If folks get intrusive enough to bully you, politely push back and if necessary, you are now aware of another problem justifying your decision.

To paraphrase some guidance I've heard, scrape it off your shoes and move on. While some similar issues exist, I refuse to attend my wifes church simply because the pastor decided to follow mans rules, not God's Rules, and once that became fact I no longer congregate with them. If and when the subject ever comes up in one of the elder's home sessions I won't mince words over it. Haven't lost any sleep over it, either.

Been there done that. Don't let it fester, move on. God didn't require the disciples to stay together under one roof, he sent them out. You are sent.

You're not obligated to give any notice and you're free to come and go as you please.

If you think having a discussion with the pastor might help moderate the issues you don't like, have the discussion, however, the time to have this discussion in such a way as to have an impact would have been years ago when this trend started. Now that it's got all this momentum, it's unlikely to revert back to the way you like.

I wouldn't frame it in terms of "we don't like these things, so we're leaving." To me that's similar to people who make an "I'm leaving" post on social media and then hang around to watch the carnage.

The one I left, the "Music Minister" decided he had become a celebrity from all the popularity gained by the loud new music services, left his wife, took off with the pastor's sister and took a job at some bigger church.

Funny, he never let any others sing other than him either.

They discovered what he had done and immediately fired him. She left him, he lost everything and wound up robbing the bank where my niece worked.