SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge Argentinian Navy lost contact with one of its submarines. all presumed dead and ship lost in the abyss(Edited)
Main Page The Lounge Argentinian Navy lost contact with one of its submarines. all presumed dead and ship lost in the abyss(Edited)Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
semi-reformed sailor |
because the Argentine Govt didn't have the info, it came from us (The USN) and it took some time to review, filter out other noise and then give the Argentine govt a good copy. And an explanation and not release how much of our info was involved and what we knew and when, because that info would be secret.... "Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.” Robert A. Heinlein “You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020 “A single round of buckshot to the torso almost always results in an immediate change of behavior.” Chris Baker | |||
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| Member |
Here's what I don't understand. If this is a diesel electric sub and you have issues with the ships battery system, wouldn't the first thing you do would be to return to port, on the surface, using the diesel engines, rather than being submerged utilizing only the ships battery system? I find this to be very odd. I'm a yacht Captain, not a sub Captain and have no knowledge of a subs interworkings. But if we have a battery issue, I turn around, head to the nearest port and fix the issue. | |||
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Member |
I was actually surprised they released this: "The missing Argentine submarine may have been located early this morning, after a US Navy aircraft allegedly detected a 'heat stain' from 230ft below the surface, some 185miles from the coast, and a rescue vessel separately reported hearing a sonar signal." | |||
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| The Quiet Man |
Depending on the specific battery problem, you may surface and open all hatches to vent gasses released by the batteries. Submarines on the surface are not particularly stable in rough seas... | |||
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| Member |
You have to have propulsion via the batteries to get to the surface. There's a point in diving and surfacing that the boat has zero stability so just floating to the surface in 20' seas would most likely cause you to roll over. If you roll enough to lose air from your ballast tanks the parties over and you'll sink with a list. You have to have forward momentum when diving or surfacing. | |||
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| Member |
What a mess. SO if you lose propulsion while submerged, it's game over? Do they have back up battery banks or several battery banks where you switch from one to the other? Do they have a backup electric motor? As sad as it is to say, I feel the sailors on this sub are doomed at this point in time. I hope they do find them and miraculously they're alive, but it's not looking hopeful. | |||
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| Live long and prosper  |
What I feared is what appears to have happened. The Navy was grying to put this under the rug and avoid being the bearer of bad news. Now that the news has spread about the explosion theh're letting the people do the math without announcing the ship is lost with all hands. Turns out that the Navy was also keeping secrets from the Ñresident and he got his intel from the US and other sources. The Navy was first reprimanded severely and now the top brass got their asses fired. The Navy is also not doing much for the crews relatives... I'm learning about these debris that were found on this thread. The fact has not been mentioned in the locsl news. 0-0 "OP is a troll" - Flashlightboy, 12/18/20 | |||
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| Member |
While I wish the best for my brothers, I believe they have departed on what is called the "Eternal Patrol". | |||
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Official Space Nerd |
Yeah, the critical factor is the air supply. With or without an explosion on board, they were only supposed to have enough air to last them until yesterday. And, that time estimate was based on a healthy boat. If the boat was crippled, it likely would have affected the amount of breathable air available to the surviving crew (meaning they could have died days ago). Of course, we don't know, at this point, whether any crew survived the explosion. Many of the sub guys I knew stated they would prefer to 'go quickly' than to be stranded on the bottom, without hope of rescue, while they slowly succumbed to CO2 overdose or loss of oxygen (excess CO2 build up can kill you faster than lack of oxygen, like in the Apollo 13 scenario). I never sailed on a sub, but I tend to agree with the sub guys' opinion in this regard. Fear God and Dread Nought Admiral of the Fleet Sir Jacky Fisher | |||
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Coin Sniper |
Don't I recall hearing those gasses are explosive? Pronoun: His Royal Highness and benevolent Majesty of all he surveys 343 - Never Forget Its better to be Pavlov's dog than Schrodinger's cat There are three types of mistakes; Those you learn from, those you suffer from, and those you don't survive. | |||
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| Member |
They are, it produces hydrogen gas, (think Hindenburg) but usually there is not enough of it to explode in most cases. I would think 1 or 2 batteries might grenade releasing hydrogen but think it's doubtful every battery on the boat would. I'm guessing SUBs would have quite a bit of batteries, so I'm not certain on them. But you'd also need a spark to set off the gases. I think the crew would die from breathing the hydrogen first..... I had a few batteries blow up on a few yachts over the years. Generally the battery charger went bad and leaked AC voltage into the batteries while charging them, then hit with a heavy load (like the starter on a diesel) the batteries grenade. They usually blow pieces and acid everywhere and it sounds like a grenade going off. If the sub has a diesel generator and charges the batteries via a battery charger (converting a/c to DC) this could happen....shut the diesel engines and gen off, start submersing and give the electric motor some throttle and kaboom.....I don't know, just bouncing a theory out there.....Just overcharging batteries, they will cook and release hydrogen, but the batteries themselves won't grenade. CO buildup I think would be an easier way to go than lack of oxygen. CO you feel drunk and then pass out. | |||
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Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie |
You're assuming of course that these are your standard lead acid batteries. That's not necessarily so. But I have no idea what they use on a sub like this. ~Alan Acta Non Verba NRA Life Member (Patron) God, Family, Guns, Country Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan | |||
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| Coin Sniper |
So if they submerged and several batteries were leaking hydrogen, they lose propulsion and cannot surface, hydrogen continues to build until it finds an ignition source and the hull is compromised. Plausible? Pronoun: His Royal Highness and benevolent Majesty of all he surveys 343 - Never Forget Its better to be Pavlov's dog than Schrodinger's cat There are three types of mistakes; Those you learn from, those you suffer from, and those you don't survive. | |||
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| Member |
That is true, I'm assuming. They might use lithium ion, which can grenade also,.....but I think they still release hydrogen....although I'm not sure.. given the age of the sub and that it's Argentina I'd assume AGM or GEL batteries.....I doubt they'd upgrade to different technology....but who knows......just making an assumption.....WHATEVER type of battery they use, if it grenades in an enclosed space like a submarine.....it is NOT good for the crew. | |||
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| Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie |
The batteries would only be expelling hydrogen if they are actively being charged (again, assuming they are lead acid batteries). When they are not being charged, they are not giving off hydrogen. If they were submerged, then they would not be charging the batteries. Do I have that right? I don't believe batteries giving off hydrogen was the issue here. ~Alan Acta Non Verba NRA Life Member (Patron) God, Family, Guns, Country Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan | |||
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| Official Space Nerd |
Modern diesel subs have snorkels, so that they can 'breathe' (take in air/expel exhaust) without surfacing. So, they could have been charging batteries while submerged (they just would not have been very deep). Back when the Soviet missile sub sank in 1968 (the one we tried to steal with the Glomar Explorer), we could apparently discern that the explosion that caused the sinking happened on the surface; not submerged. I would think that our sonar nets are more sophisticated today. Of course, diesel subs generally don't surface for any real reason unless they are in port. They typically spend their entire patrols submerged. So, maybe they could get an idea at what depth the explosion occurred.?.?. Fear God and Dread Nought Admiral of the Fleet Sir Jacky Fisher | |||
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| Member |
Normally resting they should not give off hydrogen. BUT they can give off a metric shit ton of hydrogen if they grenade, which I've seen (in a few instances) of not currently being charged, and run down half way and just hit with a heavy load and they decided to go.....such as starting a big diesel. I've had a few grenade that way when being started after the yacht has been on a freighter for 30 days and no power charging the batteries. Or if also charged with a battery charger that's leaking AC current, then hit with a big load (like the electric motor) 10 minutes later. I found an interesting article with the specs......8, 120 cell batteries. But boat is fastest sub underwater the article says.... has 4 -16v396 MTU's and 4 diesel generators (obviously for use on the surface or snorkel depth). Diving depth of 300 meters, it says endurance of 30 days and extended range of 70 days. I find it odd they can only stay underwater for a week at a time on oxygen. But guess they could exchange air, run the diesels, and charge the batteries submerged at snorkel depth at night..... They can accept a DSRV rescue vehicle. But I know nothing of Submarines. Here's the article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TR-1700-class_submarine | |||
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| Nature is full of magnificent creatures |
What is the maximum operational depth for a diesel submarine of this type? If it is resting in <300 feet of water, hopefully this will make recovery efforts simpler than if it were deeper. How deep does the ocean get in the area near where it was patrolling? I really wanted them to find this crew alive. Beyond that, hopefully they can recover the crew to help give some measure of closure to the surviving families. This is assuming it will be safe to recover them without losing more people in the process. | |||
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| Member |
Operational depth of 300 meters. I would guess that 240 miles off of the Argentinian coast that the depth is several thousand feet deep to 5 digits deep......which is purely a somewhat educated guess. | |||
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| Nature is full of magnificent creatures |
I thought one report I read said the US Navy thought it was resting in <300 feet of water. That seems somewhat shallow for that distance from shore. | |||
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SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge Argentinian Navy lost contact with one of its submarines. all presumed dead and ship lost in the abyss(Edited)
Main Page The Lounge Argentinian Navy lost contact with one of its submarines. all presumed dead and ship lost in the abyss(Edited)© SIGforum 2024