quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:
If they have been located, how deep is too deep? What are the options?

Another question. Is it possible for rescue crews to get air into the sub wherever it currently sits to extend the rescue timetable?

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

I KNEW females in the Navy are a bad idea. That 1 girl plugged her toys into the submarines batteries and ran all of them down.....disabling the entire boat.

You know, jimmy, maybe THIS CRAP RIGHT HERE is why you catch so much heat in practically every maritime-related thread.

How about a little SYMPATHY for the poor sailors who may be fighting for their very lives right now? You claim to be a sailor - don't you have ANY empathy for fellow sea-farers? I mean, aren't sailors supposed to know, better than anyone, the inherent dangers of the sea?


I was working crew duty with a bunch of active-duty US Navy submariners when the Kursk went down. EVERY SINGLE ONE of them expressed sympathy and empathy for the Russian sailors' plight, knowing that it could have been THEM in the same situation. They didn't give a crap that they were 'commies' and may have actually sailed against some of them during the Cold War, ready to kill each other at a moment's notice - they were brethren.


Hey, 50 people may be gasping their last breaths right now. Let's make a crude sexually-themed joke at the crew' expense.


This is below tasteless and crass. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I do have sympathy. I admit it was a joke, but in poor taste given the circumstances. I do hope for the best for the crew.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

I do have sympathy. I admit it was a joke, but in poor taste given the circumstances. I do hope for the best for the crew.

Poor taste doesn't even begin to describe it. You need to learn to keep your 6 shooter holstered.



=========================================================
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...down-final-call.html

Crew of missing Argentine submarine 'have just TWO DAYS to live': Race to find sailors before they run out of oxygen after rescue teams announce tapping noises did NOT come from men inside banging on the hull

A portion of the article: "Mr Babli also warned that there could be just 48 hours to find the San Juan before the crew run out of oxygen.

Spokesman Enrique Balbi said that if the sub was settled on the surface, or able to put up a snorkel to draw fresh air, there are supplies on board to last for a month.

But if the sub is underwater - as seems to be the case after surface searches failed to find it - then there is only enough air inside to last for a week.

The craft has already been missing for five days, and search areas indicate it is likely in deep water, meaning sending up a snorkel would be problematic."

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:
What gets the boat to the surface is air. Even with a complete failure of all power supply, the air banks have valves that can be manually operated in an emergency and there is enough air stored to get the boat to the surface - unless there is enough flooding to overcome the effect of blowing ballast, or there was damage to the tanks and they couldn't hold air.

OK, so submarines pump air into tanks similar to scuba tanks but larger. They then open valves to let water into other tanks to give them negative buoyancy to sink? Then the air from the compressed tanks blows out the water in the negative buoyancy tanks causing them to now have positive buoyancy and float? Is this essentially how it works?

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:
What gets the boat to the surface is air. Even with a complete failure of all power supply, the air banks have valves that can be manually operated in an emergency and there is enough air stored to get the boat to the surface - unless there is enough flooding to overcome the effect of blowing ballast, or there was damage to the tanks and they couldn't hold air.

OK, so submarines pump air into tanks similar to scuba tanks but larger. They then open valves to let water into other tanks to give them negative buoyancy to sink? Then the air from the compressed tanks blows out the water in the negative buoyancy tanks causing them to now have positive buoyancy and float? Is this essentially how it works?

Essentially, yes. However, the same tanks are used to flood or blow. They are called Main Ballast Tanks and 3k psi air is used to expel water in order to surface.

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:
What gets the boat to the surface is air. Even with a complete failure of all power supply, the air banks have valves that can be manually operated in an emergency and there is enough air stored to get the boat to the surface - unless there is enough flooding to overcome the effect of blowing ballast, or there was damage to the tanks and they couldn't hold air.

OK, so submarines pump air into tanks similar to scuba tanks but larger. They then open valves to let water into other tanks to give them negative buoyancy to sink? Then the air from the compressed tanks blows out the water in the negative buoyancy tanks causing them to now have positive buoyancy and float? Is this essentially how it works?

Essentially, yes. However, the same tanks are used to flood or blow. They are called Main Ballast Tanks and 3k psi air is used to expel water in order to surface.

You need to control your blow or you run out of ballast air.

If you are too deep, you simply will not have enough air to overcome negative buoyancy.

You need to do a controlled blow, get positive buoyancy, build inertia upward.

Checking the news first thing in the morning. Still no news or clues where is the sub. Comms still down.

0-0

Not sounding very positive

that's one of the things I respect about the various Navies. In peace time they really try to help each other out.

Been lurking in the thread looking for positive news. Thoughts and prayers that they are found and rescued.

Don't subs have an emergency locator device to help in finding them in the event of an emergency?

quote:

Originally posted by Dtech:

Don't subs have an emergency locator device to help in finding them in the event of an emergency?

Many of them do. I don't know if the Argentinian boat has this capability or not, but being a fairly modern German design, I would assume so. . .

However, they don't always work. In the case of the Kursk, their beacon was welded down, as they were concerned that it would have accidentally activated and given away their position during a real or exercise scenario. If the sub suffered a catastrophic failure, the crew may not have been able to activate it in time. If there were automatic criteria for the beacon's activation, it may have malfunctioned, or perhaps, the crew could have been disabled without triggering the automatic threshold.

Does anybody know if the water where the sub was operating is deeper than the sub's crush depth? If it went down in water deeper than the crush depth, then there is no hope for them. If they are shallow enough, assuming they are still alive, then there is still hope.

Subs have active sonar that can be heard for miles and miles. If they are alive, they aren't necessarily limited to banging on the hull with hammers. I would have assumed they would have activated their active 'pinging' sonar in order to call for help. With so many ships looking for them, I would assume that this would have been heard already. The fact that they haven't apparently done so means that the crew is either incapacitated, the room with the controls for the sonar are flooded, or there was some other kind of emergency that disabled this capability (it requires power, of course, so in a total power loss, the sonar wouldn't work).

You can learn a lot about how subs work by watching the second reel of Das Boot, after they sink and are trying to get positive buoyancy. That movie really brought home the feelings of submariners, and I found myself emphathizing with the men, even though they were the enemy. I hope they find and save this crew.

At this poont in time, the Navy has not acknowledged knowing the whereabouts of the sub when it lost contact. I hear 250 miles from the coast heading north from Ushuaia (way south) to Mar del Plata. Not much else to go.
With no better clues, that's a lot of ocean to cover.

0-0

Truly hope they find the crew alive and rescue them. Do not care what the nationality might be.

They are human beings in need of help.

This is so horrible, God Bless Sailors.

quote:

Originally posted by Patriot:

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:
What gets the boat to the surface is air. Even with a complete failure of all power supply, the air banks have valves that can be manually operated in an emergency and there is enough air stored to get the boat to the surface - unless there is enough flooding to overcome the effect of blowing ballast, or there was damage to the tanks and they couldn't hold air.

OK, so submarines pump air into tanks similar to scuba tanks but larger. They then open valves to let water into other tanks to give them negative buoyancy to sink? Then the air from the compressed tanks blows out the water in the negative buoyancy tanks causing them to now have positive buoyancy and float? Is this essentially how it works?

Essentially, yes. However, the same tanks are used to flood or blow. They are called Main Ballast Tanks and 3k psi air is used to expel water in order to surface.

You need to control your blow or you run out of ballast air.

If you are too deep, you simply will not have enough air to overcome negative buoyancy.

You need to do a controlled blow, get positive buoyancy, build inertia upward.

Ok, so basically you take on just enough ballast to create a neutral or slightly negative buoyancy and then use your rudders to cruise shallower or deeper underwater? Now is there enough ballast air to go up and then back down a few times or do you have to surface and use a pump to refill the air tanks?

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:
What gets the boat to the surface is air. Even with a complete failure of all power supply, the air banks have valves that can be manually operated in an emergency and there is enough air stored to get the boat to the surface - unless there is enough flooding to overcome the effect of blowing ballast, or there was damage to the tanks and they couldn't hold air.

OK, so submarines pump air into tanks similar to scuba tanks but larger. They then open valves to let water into other tanks to give them negative buoyancy to sink? Then the air from the compressed tanks blows out the water in the negative buoyancy tanks causing them to now have positive buoyancy and float? Is this essentially how it works?

A submarine is basically two closed-end cigar tubes one inside the other. The inside tube is the people tube. The outside tube is the water tube. You open valves to let the water in and the sub sinks. You blow air from the inside tube to the outside tube to push water out of the outer tube to gain bouyancy.

14 countries said to be helping on the search. Still no signs of the sub. 7th day since her dissapearance. Morale is low.

0-0

Hope they really have found her.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...ne-located-Navy.html

Missing Argentine submarine 'is located by US Navy and a new sonar signal heard' as rescuers race to the spot with oxygen due to run out imminently

Search for missing Argentine submarine intensifies as the crew said to run out of oxygen today
US Navy aircraft reportedly detected a 'heat stain from a metallic object' at a depth of about 230ft
Separately, a rescue vessel allegedly reported hearing an infrasound sonar signal late Tuesday night
Sub with 44 crew went missing last Wednesday while sailing from Ushuaia to naval base in Mar del Plata
They sailed on Monday, communication was lost on Wednesday, and search is now involving several nations
An Argentine Navy spokesman warned yesterday that the crew only have oxygen until Wednesday morning

"The missing Argentine submarine may have been located early this morning, after a US Navy aircraft allegedly detected a 'heat stain' from 230ft below the surface, some 185miles from the coast, and a rescue vessel separately reported hearing a sonar signal."

quote:

Originally posted by bald1:

"The missing Argentine submarine may have been located early this morning, after a US Navy aircraft allegedly detected a 'heat stain' from 230ft below the surface, some 185miles from the coast, and a rescue vessel separately reported hearing a sonar signal."

This is sounding optimistic.