I have a question for the submarine experts.

If you have a diesel electric submarine, and say you're submerged at 300', and you have a total failure of the battery or battery banks due to a short, or fire or the bank going dead. Can you get the SUB to the surface, either with manual pumps to pump out the ballast tanks or other means?

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
I have a question for the submarine experts.

If you have a diesel electric submarine, and say you're submerged at 300', and you have a total failure of the battery or battery banks due to a short, or fire or the bank going dead. Can you get the SUB to the surface, either with manual pumps to pump out the ballast tanks or other means?

Until such time that the real submariners chime in, I would say a 100% power failure would be a physical impossibility on a modern boat. They had to put in safeguards against such a scenario, such as having dedicated emergency batteries for the emergency blow systems. . .

Some boats actually have escape chambers, that can fit the entire crew. It would separate from the hull and float to the surface, with independent batteries and comm gear, food, first aid, water, etc. Apparently, this type wasn't so equipped. It probably would have, of course, been very useful in this situation.

What gets the boat to the surface is air. Even with a complete failure of all power supply, the air banks have valves that can be manually operated in an emergency and there is enough air stored to get the boat to the surface - unless there is enough flooding to overcome the effect of blowing ballast, or there was damage to the tanks and they couldn't hold air.

Theoretically, in the scenario you describe, so long as you weren't mired in the muck of the bottom, you could hand crank the periscopes and radio masts to their maximum.

The sub now displaces more water (albeit a tiny amount). If that additional displacement is enough to overcome the negative buoyancy holding the sub down, it would have no other choice but to surface.

Or so says Archimedes.

As others have said, if there is any power left, pump as much water out as you can, blow whatever air reserves you have, and hope like Hell it overcomes the negative buoyancy holding you down.

In the interest of full disclosure, I didn't serve on subs or stay at a Holiday Inn last night, so I can (and likely am) be full of it.

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Originally posted by Hound Dog:

Some boats actually have escape chambers, that can fit the entire crew. It would separate from the hull

Is this really the case ?? I had the opportunity to tour 2 older submarines at a museum in San Diego and they didn't have anything like that. Seems hard to imagine how you could justify such an option from an efficiency point of view. But I really don't know what I'm talking about.

Would love to hear from an expert !

Help is on the way...

http://www.thedrive.com/the-wa...en-times-on-saturday

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In the meantime, just as we expected, the search effort has ballooned into a full-on international affair with the U.S. sending P-8 Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft and the Navy's Underwater Rescue Capabilities (URC) unit to Argentina to work alongside a NASA P-3B that is already taking part in the effort. The Navy detailed their undersea rescue deployment plans in a statement, stating in part:

"URC is deploying two independent rescue assets based on a number of factors, including the varying depth of ocean waters near South America's southeastern coast and the differing safe operating depths of the two rescue systems.

Three U.S. Air Force C-17 Globemaster III and one U.S. Air Force C-5 Galaxy aircraft will transport the first rescue system, the Submarine Rescue Chamber (SRC) and underwater intervention Remotely Operated Vehicle (ROV) from Miramar to Comodoro Rivadavia, Argentina. The four aircraft are scheduled to depart Miramar Nov. 18 and arrive in Argentina Nov. 19.

The second rescue system, the Pressurized Rescue Module (PRM) and supporting equipment will be transported via additional flights and is scheduled to arrive in Argentina early next week.

The SRC is a McCann rescue chamber designed during World War II and still used today. SRC can rescue up to six persons at a time and reach a bottomed submarine at depths of 850 feet. The PRM can submerge up to 2,000 feet for docking and mating, with a submarine settled on the ocean floor up to 45-degree angle in both pitch and roll. The PRM can rescue up to 16 personnel at a time. Both assets are operated by two crewmembers and mate with the submarine by sealing over the submarine's hatch allowing Sailors to safely transfer to the rescue chamber.

The URC Sailors deploying with the rescue systems are highly trained on its use and routinely exercise employing the advanced technology in submarine rescue scenarios."

Being a diesel boat, and seeming likely to be sitting somewhere on the bottom in a likely inoperable state, is there a clock the government is working against wherein this turns from a rescue op to a recovery op?
It would seem time is not your friend in this instance.

quote:

Originally posted by mike28w:
Is this really the case ?? I had the opportunity to tour 2 older submarines at a museum in San Diego and they didn't have anything like that. Seems hard to imagine how you could justify such an option from an efficiency point of view. But I really don't know what I'm talking about.

Would love to hear from an expert !

The four Type 209/1500s of the Indian Navy have this feature, and it was proposed for but not built into the Australian Collins class.

http://defencetalk.blogspot.de...nly-indian-navy.html

article right now about a possible beacon

https://www.reuters.com/video/...ewsChannel=worldNews

Possible signals from missing Argentine submarine

Sunday, November 19, 2017 - 00:53

Argentina's defense ministry says that several failed ''satellite calls'' that it believes came from a missing naval submarine have been detected, in a likely sign the crew of 44 was trying to reestablish contact. Sara Hemrajani reports.

▲ Hide Transcript

A sign of hope for the families of the 44 crew members on board a missing Argentine navy submarine. On Saturday, the defense ministry said it believes it's detected seven failed "satellite calls" from the vessel. A possible indicator that the crew has been trying to reestablish communications. The location of the ARA San Juan hasn't been known since Wednesday, when it last made contact 268 miles off Argentina's southern Atlantic coast. Authorities in Argentina are now working on tracing the calls, while an international search mission is underway. But that's been complicated by recent stormy weather. The navy says an electrical outage on the submarine may have caused its problems.

quote:

Originally posted by mike28w:

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:

Some boats actually have escape chambers, that can fit the entire crew. It would separate from the hull

Is this really the case ?? I had the opportunity to tour 2 older submarines at a museum in San Diego and they didn't have anything like that. Seems hard to imagine how you could justify such an option from an efficiency point of view. But I really don't know what I'm talking about.

Would love to hear from an expert !

The Argentinian boats do NOT have this feature.

The boats you toured, the Soviet Foxtrot-class B-39 (1950s design) and USS Dolphin (1960s) were older designs. IIRC, the 'rescue pod' feature didn't come around until maybe the 1980s or later, and then only on a few designs (the US never used this). They were not a very popular feature, as generally, submarines are built primarily with wartime effectiveness in mind. Setting aside such a large part of the boat as a lifeboat is sort of wasteful, when it comes to pure military utility. Subs are notoriously cramped, so setting aside a big chunk of the sub's 'real estate' for rescue purposes means that is less room for sensors, weapons, fuel, food, and other stuff that would enhance it's military effectiveness.

Of course, it would be ideal for a situation where the boat is stuck on the ocean floor above crush depth (thinking the Kursk scenario, here - if Kursk had such a feature, many of the crew probably would have been rescued).


However, if they are getting satellite phone call attempts, then the sub must be on the surface. If so, there is a great chance of rescuing the crew.



Diesel boats such as this are really good weapons. They are incredibly quiet, and they don't NEED to have as long of a range as nuke boats. They are often used as coastal defense platforms, for nations that are simply trying to defend their borders and littoral areas. Even these Argentinian boats, with a decent crew and handled well, could cause trouble for US or Brit nuke boats. They are not necessarily 'obsolete' just because they don't have nuclear reactors. The US hasn't built a diesel sub since the 1960s; many argue that there would have been a good niche for them during the Cold War. Now, it's probably better for us to have nukes - their range and speed give them the ability to traverse global distances quickly (and quietly). Also, we stopped exporting subs decades ago; many countries (thinking Sweden, Russia, and Germany here) make a good deal of money selling subs to countries that don't have an indigenous submarine construction capability. Since we don't export, there was even less motivation for us to build diesel subs. Countries such as Argentina, with no such global responsibilities, would have been foolish (IMO) to have invested in nuke boats, as they are MUCH more expensive to own and operate. . .

Five days and no signs. Surface search no longer in progress due to bad seather conditions and little sense in violent seas. Navy press statements say nothing. Allegedly, international assistance is providing the best means for underwater search yet the area is not defined.

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...down-final-call.html

Has the missing Argentine submarine been FOUND with the crew ALIVE inside? Navy search teams hear 'tools being banged against the hull' five days after the captain's last radio call reported a 'failure'

ARA San Juan went missing last Wednesday after reporting a battery failure
Submarine and 44 crew - including the country's first female submariner Eliana Krawczyk - was sailing from Ushuaia to Mar del Plata when it vanished
Navy is focusing search efforts on 35 square nautical miles of ocean after picking up sonar signals that could have been crew banging on the hull
Spokesman warned that if vessel is underwater, the crew likely only have enough oxygen to survive for the next 48 hours

quote:

Originally posted by bald1:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...down-final-call.html

Has the missing Argentine submarine been FOUND with the crew ALIVE inside? Navy search teams hear 'tools being banged against the hull' five days after the captain's last radio call reported a 'failure'

ARA San Juan went missing last Wednesday after reporting a battery failure
Submarine and 44 crew - including the country's first female submariner Eliana Krawczyk - was sailing from Ushuaia to Mar del Plata when it vanished
Navy is focusing search efforts on 35 square nautical miles of ocean after picking up sonar signals that could have been crew banging on the hull
Spokesman warned that if vessel is underwater, the crew likely only have enough oxygen to survive for the next 48 hours

I KNEW females in the Navy are a bad idea. That 1 girl plugged her toys into the submarines batteries and ran all of them down.....disabling the entire boat.

Color me an old whatever but I really don't think that kind of humor is appropriate given the dire circumstances facing that boat's crew.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by bald1:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...down-final-call.html

Has the missing Argentine submarine been FOUND with the crew ALIVE inside? Navy search teams hear 'tools being banged against the hull' five days after the captain's last radio call reported a 'failure'

ARA San Juan went missing last Wednesday after reporting a battery failure
Submarine and 44 crew - including the country's first female submariner Eliana Krawczyk - was sailing from Ushuaia to Mar del Plata when it vanished
Navy is focusing search efforts on 35 square nautical miles of ocean after picking up sonar signals that could have been crew banging on the hull
Spokesman warned that if vessel is underwater, the crew likely only have enough oxygen to survive for the next 48 hours

I KNEW females in the Navy are a bad idea. That 1 girl plugged her toys into the submarines batteries and ran all of them down.....disabling the entire boat.

Really? Coming from a submariner with 9 patrols, that...just...

Still keeping people in the dark down here. Today as in this are the latest news, they mentioned the batteries trouble or some kind of failure reported by the captain's last communication. Five days have gone by and the expertes brought by the tv channels blab about the sub specs but no one dare say the we do not have the capability to rescue the crew and they must sort it out by themselves. We're still hoping for the best but she should have made contact or reached the shores long time ago. No news is still bad news.

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MY thanks to BansheeOne and Hound dog for the info. I enjoy learning new stuff !! mike

quote:

Originally posted by bcereuss:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by bald1:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...down-final-call.html

Has the missing Argentine submarine been FOUND with the crew ALIVE inside? Navy search teams hear 'tools being banged against the hull' five days after the captain's last radio call reported a 'failure'

ARA San Juan went missing last Wednesday after reporting a battery failure
Submarine and 44 crew - including the country's first female submariner Eliana Krawczyk - was sailing from Ushuaia to Mar del Plata when it vanished
Navy is focusing search efforts on 35 square nautical miles of ocean after picking up sonar signals that could have been crew banging on the hull
Spokesman warned that if vessel is underwater, the crew likely only have enough oxygen to survive for the next 48 hours

I KNEW females in the Navy are a bad idea. That 1 girl plugged her toys into the submarines batteries and ran all of them down.....disabling the entire boat.

Really? Coming from a submariner with 9 patrols, that...just...

She put her life on the line in service to her country, which means she has my respect and the respect of everyother person that serves.....which is more then i can say about about someone who has never served. You should quit while you'll behind

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

I KNEW females in the Navy are a bad idea. That 1 girl plugged her toys into the submarines batteries and ran all of them down.....disabling the entire boat.

You know, jimmy, maybe THIS CRAP RIGHT HERE is why you catch so much heat in practically every maritime-related thread.

How about a little SYMPATHY for the poor sailors who may be fighting for their very lives right now? You claim to be a sailor - don't you have ANY empathy for fellow sea-farers? I mean, aren't sailors supposed to know, better than anyone, the inherent dangers of the sea?


I was working crew duty with a bunch of active-duty US Navy submariners when the Kursk went down. EVERY SINGLE ONE of them expressed sympathy and empathy for the Russian sailors' plight, knowing that it could have been THEM in the same situation. They didn't give a crap that they were 'commies' and may have actually sailed against some of them during the Cold War, ready to kill each other at a moment's notice - they were brethren.


Hey, 50 people may be gasping their last breaths right now. Let's make a crude sexually-themed joke at the crew' expense.


This is below tasteless and crass. You should be ashamed of yourself.

If they have been located, how deep is too deep? What are the options?