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President Zelenskyy, the answer is no Login/Join 
Raptorman
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All sources indicate Russia has pissed away 200,000 troops plus equipment on this.

I say let them keep pouring meat into the grinder.


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Eeewwww, don't touch it!
Here, poke at it with this stick.
 
Posts: 34032 | Location: North, GA | Registered: October 09, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yeah, they’ve got prisons full of disposable troops. Saves the cost of execution. Cost has to be figured in.
 
Posts: 5760 | Location: west 'by god' virginia | Registered: May 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
superior firepower
Picture of parabellum
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We're not playing a dangerous game, are we? Nope, not at all.

German chancellor doubles down, warns of 'consequences' if China sends arms to Russia

We need to ask ourselves if the Ukrainian conflict is worth the price we might end up paying, and I'm not talking about the waste of American taxpayer dollars and material.

I don't put much stock in threats from ineffectual NATO, but the Chinese are belligerent enough as it is, without NATO poking a finger in their chest. Our "world leaders" now in charge seem foolish enough to let matters get out of hand, and the empty posturing may lead to actual consequences which no one in authority can now fully anticipate. Vladimir Putin and the Chinese Communist Party are, by Western standards, not entirely sane, and we are playing with fire.
 
Posts: 106949 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Why shouldn’t China puff out her chest, they know we have no leadership. What’s to fear?
 
Posts: 5760 | Location: west 'by god' virginia | Registered: May 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
His diet consists of black
coffee, and sarcasm.
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Posts: 27742 | Location: Johnson City/Elizabethton, TN | Registered: April 28, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
:^)
Picture of BillyBonesNY
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China is having tremendous internal problems and are codependent on the west’s economy.

Militarily, the only country that can project its power en-masse is the United States.

Frankly, the West is using the Ukraine to send a message to China not to mess with Taiwan (or to interfere).

If China wants to disrupt trade with flexing military muscle that will very disruptive to the world economy, but equally so to themselves.

This China cannot afford.

I am not underestimating China’s strengths… however this isn’t the Yalu River, human waves don’t work in an adversaries favor anymore.

Russians are learning that the quality of quantity doesn’t carry the same weight that it used to on the modern battlefield.


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Posts: 7173 | Registered: March 19, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of dsiets
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quote:
Originally posted by BillyBonesNY:

If China wants to disrupt trade with flexing military muscle that will very disruptive to the world economy, but equally so to themselves.

This China cannot afford.

Imagine the U.S. learning from this and bringing home manufacturing. Much like we did w/ energy under Trump. If only we had a next president who understood all this.
 
Posts: 7285 | Location: MI | Registered: May 22, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by parabellum:
We're not playing a dangerous game, are we? Nope, not at all.

German chancellor doubles down, warns of 'consequences' if China sends arms to Russia

We need to ask ourselves if the Ukrainian conflict is worth the price we might end up paying, and I'm not talking about the waste of American taxpayer dollars and material.

I don't put much stock in threats from ineffectual NATO, but the Chinese are belligerent enough as it is, without NATO poking a finger in their chest. Our "world leaders" now in charge seem foolish enough to let matters get out of hand, and the empty posturing may lead to actual consequences which no one in authority can now fully anticipate. Vladimir Putin and the Chinese Communist Party are, by Western standards, not entirely sane, and we are playing with fire.


The China situation is one of my biggest concerns in this situation. A big issue with China is they are a major supplier of pharmaceuticals. If the members here require daily prescriptions, and if they can afford it, it might not be a bad idea to stock up a few months. China cutting off drugs would be survivable to their economy but would be catastrophic to many in the West. The CCP could cause major havoc here without ever firing a shot or flexing a military muscle. They could do that by simply having a few "mechanical issues".
 
Posts: 7487 | Registered: October 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
They're after my Lucky Charms!
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quote:
Originally posted by BillyBonesNY:
China is having tremendous internal problems and are codependent on the west’s economy.

Militarily, the only country that can project its power en-masse is the United States.

Frankly, the West is using the Ukraine to send a message to China not to mess with Taiwan (or to interfere).

If China wants to disrupt trade with flexing military muscle that will very disruptive to the world economy, but equally so to themselves.

This China cannot afford.

I am not underestimating China’s strengths… however this isn’t the Yalu River, human waves don’t work in an adversaries favor anymore.

Russians are learning that the quality of quantity doesn’t carry the same weight that it used to on the modern battlefield.


China is paying attention. The article below was published this morning. And read between the lines, and you can see China is still planning on taking Taiwan, and they do not like how the world rallied to support Ukraine against Russia's invasion. So they are warning us to get back to an Obama era position of ignoring China as they do the things they want to do. And keep buying their slave labor made shit.

Does Ukraine have corruption issues. Sure. But so do we. Is Sleepy Joe an embarrassment as our President. Hell yeah. But taking an isolationist view about Ukraine and adopting a "What ever Biden is for, I'm against" attitude is exactly what China wants. The nations surrounding the South China Sea know what China is up to. A few years ago there was an article that Vietnam wants the US Navy to rebuild and use the naval base in Cahm Ram Bay. Must be saying something if Vietnam, our former enemy, is now looking to us for protection from China. We could do nothing, which is exactly what China wants us to do.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/1st...ister-054257780.html
quote:
Chinese minister warns China, US on course for conflict
BEIJING (AP) — Chinese Foreign Minister Qin Gang warned Tuesday that Beijing and Washington are headed for “conflict and confrontation” if the U.S. doesn't change course, striking a combative tone at a moment when relations between the rivals are at a historic low.

In his first news conference since taking office late last year, Qin’s harsh language appeared to defy predictions that China might abandon its aggressive “wolf warrior” diplomacy in favor of more moderate rhetoric as the two countries face off over trade and technology, Taiwan, human rights and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

Washington's China policy has “entirely deviated from the rational and sound track,” Qin told journalists on the sidelines of the annual meeting of China’s rubber-stamp legislature, when leaders lay out their economic and political priorities for the coming year.

“If the United States does not hit the brake, but continues to speed down the wrong path, no amount of guardrails can prevent derailing and there surely will be conflict and confrontation,” said Qin, whose new position is junior to the Communist Party’s senior foreign policy official, Wang Yi. “Such competition is a reckless gamble, with the stakes being the fundamental interests of the two peoples and even the future of humanity.”

Qin’s comments echoed remarks made by leader Xi Jinping in a speech Monday to legislators.

“Western countries led by the United States have implemented all-round containment, blockade and suppression of China, which has brought unprecedented grave challenges to our nation’s development,” Xi was quoted as saying by the official Xinhua News Agency.

In the face of that, China must “remain calm, maintain concentration, strive for progress while maintaining stability, take active actions, unite as one, and dare to fight,” he said.

U.S. officials have grown increasingly worried about China's expansive political and economic goals and the possibility of war over Taiwan — and many officials in Washington have called for the U.S. to make a bigger effort to counter Chinese influence abroad.

In recent weeks, concerns about Chinese spying on the U.S. and Beijing's influence campaigns there have drawn particular concern, and officials from the two countries have frequently traded accusations.

U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken canceled a planned visit to Beijing after Washington shot down a suspected Chinese spy balloon that flew over American territory. The massive balloon and its payload, including electronics and optics, have been recovered from the ocean floor and are being analyzed by the FBI.

Then last week, China responded with indignation when U.S. officials raised the issue again of whether the COVID-19 pandemic began with a lab leak. The Foreign Ministry accused the U.S. of “politicizing the issue" in an attempt to discredit China.

And the two countries have traded angry words over Taiwan as China has stepped up its diplomatic isolation and military harassment of the self-governing island democracy that it claims as its own territory.

Qin — who briefly served as ambassador to Washington and gained a reputation for his cutting condemnations of China’s critics when he was Foreign Ministry spokesman — touched on all these topics on Tuesday.

He criticized Washington for shooting down the balloon, repeating claims that its appearance in U.S. skies was an accident.

“In this case the United States' perception and views of China are seriously distorted. It regards China as its primary rival and the most consequential geopolitical challenge," Qin said. “This is like the first button in a shirt being put wrong and the result is that the U.S.-China policy has entirely deviated from the rational and sound track."

On Taiwan, Qin called the issue the first red line that must not be crossed. China and Taiwan split amid civil war in 1949. While the U.S. does not advocate for either unification or Taiwan’s formal independence, Washington is obligated by federal law to see that the island has the means to defend itself if attacked.

“The U.S. has unshakable responsibility for causing the Taiwan question,” he said, accusing the U.S. of “disrespecting China's sovereignty and territorial integrity,” by offering the island political backing and furnishing it with defensive weapons in response to Beijing's threat to use force to bring it under Chinese control.

"Why does the U.S. ask China not to provide weapons to Russia, while it keeps selling arms to Taiwan?" Qin asked.

In Taipei, Taiwan's Defense Minister said the armed forces weren't seeking outright conflict with China's military, but nor would they back away in the event of Chinese aircraft or ships entering Taiwanese coastal seas or airspace.

“It is the nation’s armed forces’ duty to mount an appropriate response,” Chiu Kuo-cheng told legislators.

Beijing has also accused the West of “fanning the flames” by providing Ukraine with weaponry to fend off the Russian invasion. China says it has a neutral stance in the war, but has also said it has a “no-limits friendship” with Russia and has refused to criticize Moscow’s invasion — or even refer to it as an invasion.

A Chinese call for a cease-fire in Ukraine that has drawn praise from Russia but dismissals from the West has done nothing to lessen tensions as U.S. officials have repeatedly accused China of considering providing weapons to Moscow for use in the war.

“Efforts for peace talks have been repeatedly undermined. There seems to be an invisible hand pushing for the protraction and escalation of the conflict and using the Ukraine crisis to serve a certain geopolitical agenda,” Qin said.

Qin's news conference came two days after the opening of the yearly meeting of the National People's Congress, a mostly ceremonial body assembled to approve government reports and, this year, a new slate of top-level appointments. That is expected to include a norm-breaking third five-year term as president for Xi, who has eliminated all term limits to allow him to rule indefinitely.


Lord, your ocean is so very large and my divos are so very f****d-up
Dirt Sailors Unite!
 
Posts: 25075 | Location: NoVa | Registered: May 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
superior firepower
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quote:
Originally posted by IrishWind:
Does Ukraine have corruption issues. Sure. But so do we.
Are you actually putting this forth as a valid point? Roll Eyes
quote:
But taking an isolationist view about Ukraine and adopting a "What ever Biden is for, I'm against" attitude is exactly what China wants.
How disingenuous. You intend to take all that has been said against US involvement in this conflict and distill it down to a tantrum akin to those constantly thrown by the left against Donald Trump or conservatives in general. The point I made earlier in this thread is that those who support our involvement in this conflict do, in fact, find themselves in bed with leftists, and I would appreciate it if you wouldn't behave as if this point has no significance other than a mindless opposition to those with whom we disagree.

And, "isolationist"? I take exception to this term being thrown about so casually, as if I and others who oppose US involvement in this conflict react in a knee-jerk fashion to any hint at American involvement abroad. That is not accurate. I and most others here supported US involvement in Afghanistan after September 11th, because the United States had been attacked directly and when you throw around "isolationist" you ignore that we support fully our nation's military when we deem its use warranted. Looking at the facts surrounding a foreign conflict and saying "It's not in the national interest for the US to become involved" is not isolationism, which is a term which suggests shortsightedness, weakness and selfishness, and I don't want to again see it on the pages of this thread, since it's being used incorrectly, and don't tell me about your careful wording of saying "taking an isolationist view," because it's the same thing.

I and other members here will be the first to speak up in support of the United States kicking ass when there are asses that we need to kick.

Furthermore, who cares what China wants us to do? What the United States should do should be our only concern, and what we should do is to protect the sovereignty of this nation. And what we should not do is to go pouring billions of taxpayer dollars and billions of dollars worth of material aid into a regional conflict which has nothing to do with the security of this nation.

It's clear that you're all for this insanity, but I've yet to see from you anything approaching a rational argument to support your position.


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"I am your retribution." - Donald Trump, speech at CPAC, March 4, 2023
 
Posts: 106949 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Oriental Redneck
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People here throw around the word "isolationist" like the commies like to throw around the word "racist". It's dumb and tiresome.


Q






 
Posts: 26014 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
SIGforum's Berlin
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To be precise: some like to throw around "isolationist" like others here throw around "commies".



The only way in today's world to be isolationist is to go North Korea, which isn't entirely voluntary either. Neither the contemporary US nor China as the two arguably most powerful nations in the world could limit themselves to their own affairs and keep their economic, and thus their political and military power. The only choice is between leading and being led.
 
Posts: 2405 | Location: Berlin, Germany | Registered: April 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Oriental Redneck
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^^^^ I don't see anyone on here ever advocate the US just "limit to their own affairs". There are times to get involved, and the US has been involved in many, and then, there are times to not get involved. If you're trying to equate the US not getting involved in this Ukraine war as "being led", you're not succeeding. If you're not, then I don't see the point of making such a generalized statement that doesn't even apply here.


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Posts: 26014 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
SIGforum's Berlin
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What is in one nation's interest is of course somewhat open to interpretation. As I see it, the US is acting as the biggest supporter of Ukraine to reaffirm and maintain its position as the Western lead nation; which in turn it has an interest in being because as a country, it benefits immensely from shaping policy in the Western world, even if it comes at a price which Americans like to complain about.

Germans like to complain that we’re paying through our noses to other EU members, and in return only get accused of not doing enough and being bullies at the same time, too. But in the end, we’re profiting even more from the Common Market as the informal EU lead nation. One level up, the current global trade system is essentially set up to guarantee American influence and wealth. Now whether those benefits are distributed justly within the US is a matter for domestic debate.

While both China and the US have huge internal makets to support their domestic economies, the former is not nearly as potentially energy-independent as the latter. In turn, China controls a major global part of other critical ressources like rare earth metals which electronic industry depends upon. For the global trade which supply of such ressources demands, you need to make the world, or at least the trade routes, a sufficiently safe place. But if you make it safe for your own trade, you automatically make it safe for everyone else, too.

The UK used to do that for international sealanes; since WW II, the US has largely taken over that mission. You'll also need allies and bases to support such global operations. If you don't have those, you're not going to spend any less, either; you're still stuck with the same mission, and now you also need to secure against actors who would otherwise be your allies. Not least because those smaller nations might be gobbled up by the camp led by your competitor(s) for global influence. And if the balance of economic power in the world shifts to those, they get to make the rules for global trade. Which is what I mean with the choice of leading or being led.

Obviously the US isn't going to turn into a capitalist version of North Korea within years just due to not supporting Ukraine. But without it leading the defense of the rules-based world order, its current global position is going to erode as more historically contested borders are questioned, Western allies are thrown in turmoil, turn away from American leadership as they look for competitors or turn into ones themselves out of necessity, and former markets for your supplies and products dry up. In my view however, the Western world has generally profited from American leadership - most of all the US itself, even if Americans themselves don't always feel like it.
 
Posts: 2405 | Location: Berlin, Germany | Registered: April 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
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quote:
Originally posted by BansheeOne:
To be precise: some like to throw around "isolationist" like others here throw around "commies".
There's a significant difference- when we use the word 'commies' (which, by the way, is unfortunately the truth in many instances) we are not referring to fellow members of this forum.
quote:
Originally posted by BansheeOne:
What is in one nation's interest is of course somewhat open to interpretation. As I see it, the US is acting as the biggest supporter of Ukraine to reaffirm and maintain its position as the Western lead nation...
This is what it always come down to: America as the police of the Western world. Always.

In 1917, we were called upon to help Europe clean up its mess.

At the beginning of WWII, the United States was providing material aid to France and England, and when the Japanese attacked us in 1941, we were fighting a multi-theater war.

We halted the Russian advance in Europe. We developed and dropped bombs on Japan- a country which under any other circumstances would have continued to fight until half of their population was dead, and then we rebuilt that nation.

The French provided essential aid to the American colonies during the Revolutionary War and we have repaid that debt in full when American soldiers died invading France and marching across it to defeat the nation which had defeated it.

We became the cornerstone of NATO and held off the Soviets for 40 years with the doctrine of M.A.D.

The government and the people of the United States has done more than their share, and now Europe once again has a mess that needs to be cleaned up, and I and other Americans have had it with all of this. The past few decades have created the illusion that Europe is stable, but it's apparent at this point that Europe will, at not infrequent intervals, always have messes that need to be cleaned up. This time, let's see all the nations of Europe clean up this mess. America has tremendous problems of its own, which there is no need to outline; any conscious person- here or elsewhere- can see them.

The details of what I've outlined briefly can be nitpicked, but it all boils down to the same thing. European nations, do it yourself this time.
 
Posts: 106949 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Amen! With all the supposed intellectuals in Europe, you’d think they could figure it out without the help of us unwashed heathens.
 
Posts: 13720 | Location: Shenandoah Valley, VA | Registered: October 16, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
superior firepower
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quote:
Originally posted by Leemur:
Amen! With all the supposed intellectuals in Europe, you’d think they could figure it out without the help of us unwashed heathens.
They look down on us but expect us to rescue them when their basement floods. That doesn't make us the leader of the Western world; that makes us their janitor.
 
Posts: 106949 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It appears to me that the confusion is over a definition between isolationism versus non-intervention.

“Non-interventionism or non-intervention is a political philosophy or national foreign policy doctrine that opposes interference in the domestic politics and affairs of other countries but, in contrast to isolationism, is not necessarily opposed to international commitments in general. A 1915 definition is that non-interventionism is a policy characterized by the absence of "interference by a state or states in the external affairs of another state without its consent, or in its internal affairs with or without its consent".”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...ments%20in%20general.

A further expansion on these differences is given here.
https://www.heritage.org/polit...ight-way-think-about


---------------------
LGBFJB

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." — Mark Twain

“Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.” — H. L. Mencken
 
Posts: 2676 | Location: Falls of the Ohio River, Kain-tuk-e | Registered: January 13, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
SIGforum's Berlin
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quote:
Originally posted by parabellum:
This is what it always come down to: America as the police of the Western world. Always.

In 1917, we were called upon to help Europe clean up its mess.

At the beginning of WWII, the United States was providing material aid to France and England, and when the Japanese attacked us in 1941, we were fighting a multi-theater war.

We halted the Russian advance in Europe. We developed and dropped bombs on Japan- a country which under any other circumstances would have continued to fight until half of their population was dead, and then we rebuilt that nation.

The French provided essential aid to the American colonies during the Revolutionary War and we have repaid that debt in full when American soldiers died invading France and marching across it to defeat the nation which had defeated it.

We became the cornerstone of NATO and held off the Soviets for 40 years with the doctrine of M.A.D.

The government and the people of the United States has done more than their share, and now Europe once again has a mess that needs to be cleaned up, and I and other Americans have had it with all of this. The past few decades have created the illusion that Europe is stable, but it's apparent at this point that Europe will, at not infrequent intervals, always have messes that need to be cleaned up. This time, let's see all the nations of Europe clean up this mess. America has tremendous problems of its own, which there is no need to outline; any conscious person- here or elsewhere- can see them.

The details of what I've outlined briefly can be nitpicked, but it all boils down to the same thing. European nations, do it yourself this time.


I understand that, and as noted, I can relate to some degree from the German perspective vis-a-vis the EU. It's just that as someone heavily influenced by the Realist school of international relations, I think it's ultimately in the American interest for the reasons mentioned.

Could others do more to contribute to securing the current world order? You bet, and I'll start with Germany, history of the 20th century be damned. However, in turn the US needs to be prepared to automatically share more of its decision-making power with the allies who would step up. I believe most Americans would actually be pretty okay with that. Unfortunately at the government level, GHWB was the last president who understood this; probably because he was the last of the WW II generation. From the Clinton administration on, US policy in that regard has been schizophrenic - they want American allies to take a greater share of the joint security burden, but still follow the American lead as before. Call it the arrival of the entitlement generation in politics, who want the same benefits they're accustomed to, but pay less.

That's not limited to US politics obviously, but US policy has been to actively discourage emergence of a joint European security identity, because it was seen as a competition to NATO and US leadership. Within NATO, when France returned to the integrated military structure in 2009, they wanted to take over Joint Force Command Naples from the US - but got denied because of American strategic interest in the Mediterranean (they got Allied Command Transformation in Norfolk, VA instead - nominally a higher command, but responsible for reforming strategies and doctrines rather than operations). OTOH, clearly most US allies have also been content with the distribution of power and expenses within the alliance, despite their own complaints that the Americans are always bossing them around.

One problem is that there's no nation that seems both willing to step up to take over some or all of the American responsibility, and that would be accepted by the rest - including the US, which would be likely to see that as a threat to its own power. And unfortunately, any step away from American leadership would certainly be weaponized against whichever party supported it in domestic debate, which has its own schizophrenic entrenched positions. Here's a test question I like to ask Americans who complain about the disproportionate US and allied spending on joint security: To what level should American defense spending be reduced, and which capabilities and troop numbers should be cut so that US allies are forced to take up the slack?
 
Posts: 2405 | Location: Berlin, Germany | Registered: April 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lawyers, Guns
and Money
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quote:
Here's a test question I like to ask Americans who complain about the disproportionate US and allied spending on joint security: To what level should American defense spending be reduced, and which capabilities and troop numbers should be cut so that US allies are forced to take up the slack?

Our army is short of its annual recruitment by 25 percent. We all suspect but do not say out loud the cause. The stereotyping of poor and middle-class white males as both raging and biased, and yet expected to fight and die in misadventures in Afghanistan and Iraq, has finally convinced the parents of these 18-year-olds to say, “no more.” Forcing an un-safe, un-proven, and ineffective experimental injection on young people at little risk from the Covid virus has caused at least 5000 + to involuntarily separate from military service and countless more not to re-enlist.

Need we say anything about the lack of efficacy or morality of the Department of Justice, FBI, or CIA?



"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible."
-- Justice Janice Rogers Brown

"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth."
-rduckwor
 
Posts: 23817 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: April 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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