We're far from all in. We've stuck a toe (well maybe a whole foot) in. But I really think there's only so far we'll go.

Note: we haven't given the Ukes anything to attack Russia proper with. And, very importantly, no US troops are in combat there. That's the big red line.

quote:

Originally posted by wishfull thinker:
Just for fun maybe you should read a history book that is t Rurocentrc and notice the conflicts we have stayed out of.
Africa for instance seems to always have a war we could get into, sun-Saharan northern Egypt. How about Asia? Chinese have run roughshod there for five decades. Cambodia, Laos, we managed to stay out. Phillipines also in a guerilla war.

From what I read regularly we aren’t even sure that we can or will go to the aid of Taiwan. But Ukraine? A country most Americans couldn’t find on a map of Ukraine were all in for… cuz, just cuz.

No thanks and my reading is just fine.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BBMW,

Kinda like it was in Viet Nam.

All these conflicts we’ve gotten involved in since WWII, how many have we decisively won, and what’s it gotten us? Let’s make regime change we’ve supported part of that though exercise since everyone supporting this wants to see Putin deposed.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
since WWII, how many have we decisively won, and what’s it gotten us? Let’s make regime change we’ve supported part of that though exercise since everyone supporting this wants to see Putin deposed.

won: none
drawne Korea
Lostne Viet Nam
Game called on account of excessive blood and treasure loss: Iraq, Somalia, Syria, Afghanistan (fill in more...)
Regime Change: Tough one, our idea is to remove the current boss in some public blood-letting then replace him with utter chaos, ex: Iraq, Syria, probably Afghanistan.

Important End Note: My opinion on the above is strictly and completely on government emplaced outcomes and does not reflect in any imaginable way on the warriors who answered the call. Many paid the full price, many more suffered and many spend some part of their day asking what the hell happened. I include myself in the latter group.

^^^ Right.
US foreign policy since WWII has been terrible at best.
Disaster if honest. With the exception of Ronald Reagan standing up to the Soviet Union.

Here's the guy we're sending money to.



.

quote:

Originally posted by IrishWind:
Anyone arguing this is Europe's fight, we have no links to it, really needs to open a history book. From the Colonial Era to the dissolution of the Former Yugoslavia we have been dragged into Europe's conflicts. We can be isolationists, or non-interventionists as much as we want, but trying hard to recall a major European conflict that sooner or later we didn't get dragged into. Right now it is just material support for the Ukrainians. I would rather see that than a certain point where US and NATO troops have to go in to defend Kiev against Russia.

Stand tall my friend. Yourself and Joe Biden are standing arm in arm. Be proud, very proud. If you start to feel like an idiot, keep standing tall.

quote:

Originally posted by Greymann:
Here's the guy we're sending money to.

Uh, say what?

note to self: do not open any Ukraine videos again under any circumstances

quote:

Originally posted by wishfull thinker:

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
since WWII, how many have we decisively won, and what’s it gotten us? Let’s make regime change we’ve supported part of that though exercise since everyone supporting this wants to see Putin deposed.

won: none
drawne Korea
Lostne Viet Nam
Game called on account of excessive blood and treasure loss: Iraq, Somalia, Syria, Afghanistan (fill in more...)
Regime Change: Tough one, our idea is to remove the current boss in some public blood-letting then replace him with utter chaos, ex: Iraq, Syria, probably Afghanistan.

Important End Note: My opinion on the above is strictly and completely on government emplaced outcomes and does not reflect in any imaginable way on the warriors who answered the call. Many paid the full price, many more suffered and many spend some part of their day asking what the hell happened. I include myself in the latter group.

Interesting list. Especially since we have not been in a war since WW2
Korea is a draw, but we did preserve South Korea and they are still going so this day. Even when the NorKs are saber rattling every few months to get attention and aid from the rest of the world.
Vietnam: It was a loss. But the last 20 years Vietnam has changed their tune and has come to embrace US investment and looked to us for their security against China. Makes you think...
Iraq: Obama fooked us. We were on our way and Zippy's cut and run decision doomed Iraq. If we had kept Balad and used it to support our transition teams, I bet good money ISIL would have a lot of trouble pushing into Iraq like they did. But even they might not be an ally like modern Japan or Germany, but they are managing on their own unique messed up way.
Afghanistan: OK, this one is a clusterfuck. The Afghani's never stepped up, and too many in the US were willing to gundeck reports to make both themselves and Afghanistan look good. And even at the close of Bush 43's term everyone knew the Taliban was just waiting for us to leave. Bush, Obama, and Trump all should have held their government's feet to the fire. But since no one did, it should not be a surprise that Biden's total failure in withdrawing our forces. Still pissed about about it.

But you missed the big conflict of post WW2: The Cold War. I would say we won. Not only did the Soviet Union collapse, but all those Warsaw Pact nations couldn't get out from Moscow's rule fast enough. And all of them, after escaping Moscow's rule, begged to join NATO. Putin can be mad about NATO's expansion all he wants, but it was the decision of the people of those former Soviet puppets to want protection from Moscow. At no time did NATO demand someone to join them. Being that Shining Beacon on the Hill as President Reagan proclaimed is a win for us.

Oh, now we're down to semantics.

Long article that exposes more corruption.


Stolen Valor: The U.S. Volunteers in Ukraine Who Lie, Waste and Bicker

https://dnyuz.com/2023/03/25/s...ie-waste-and-bicker/

"Among the calamities of War may be justly numbered the diminution of the love of truth, by the falsehoods which interest dictates and credulity encourages." - Samuel Johnson, 1758, The Idler, Volume 1, Number 30

Going to war? Good news! The United States is 13 years behind in ammunition production, NYT reports

https://news.yahoo.com/going-w...nited-045349955.html

The Biden administration this month proposed a record-breaking $842 billion budget for the DOD.

Missile and munition stockpiles are dwindling as the US continues to send aid packages to Ukraine.

Since production capacity changed after the Cold War, the US can no longer keep up with wartime demands.

The United States' commitment to support Ukraine against the Russian invasion appears to have rattled the stability of the domestic stockpile of missiles and munitions.

The Biden administration has promised — as part of $33 billion sent in military aid for the besieged country so far — a US Patriot air-defense system will be sent to Ukraine, along with over 200,000 rounds of artillery, rockets, and tank rounds.

In fulfilling those promises, The New York Times reported the US has sent Ukraine so many stockpiled Stinger missiles that it would take 13 years of production at recent capacity levels to replace them. The Times added that Raytheon, the company that helps make Javeline missile systems, said it would take five years at last year's production rates to replace the number of missiles sent to Ukraine in the last ten months.

Currently, the US produces just over 14,000 rounds of 155mm ammunition every month — and Ukrainian forces have previously fired that many rounds in the span of 48 hours, The Washington Post reported last month. US officials in January proposed a production increase up to 90,000 rounds of 155mm ammunition each month to keep up with demand.

"Ammunition availability might be the single most important factor that determines the course of the war in 2023," US defense experts Michael Kofman and Rob Lee wrote in December for the Foreign Policy Research Institute, adding that Ukraine will depend on international stockpiles and production for access to the ammunition it needs.

The United States has rarely seen production shortages in ammunition and missiles to the degree the country currently faces. While there was a brief precision missile shortage in 2016 following fights in Libya and Iraq, The Times reported, the US has largely been engaged in short-term, high-intensity fights such as the Persian Gulf War, or prolonged, lower-intensity missions like the war in Afghanistan, which allowed for the stockpile to be rebuilt as needed.

Missile and munition stockpiles are dwindling as the US continues to send aid packages to Ukraine.

Since production capacity changed after the Cold War, the US can no longer keep up with wartime demands.

The United States' commitment to support Ukraine against the Russian invasion appears to have rattled the stability of the domestic stockpile of missiles and munitions.

The Biden administration has promised — as part of $33 billion sent in military aid for the besieged country so far — a US Patriot air-defense system will be sent to Ukraine, along with over 200,000 rounds of artillery, rockets, and tank rounds.

In fulfilling those promises, The New York Times reported the US has sent Ukraine so many stockpiled Stinger missiles that it would take 13 years of production at recent capacity levels to replace them. The Times added that Raytheon, the company that helps make Javeline missile systems, said it would take five years at last year's production rates to replace the number of missiles sent to Ukraine in the last ten months.

Currently, the US produces just over 14,000 rounds of 155mm ammunition every month — and Ukrainian forces have previously fired that many rounds in the span of 48 hours, The Washington Post reported last month. US officials in January proposed a production increase up to 90,000 rounds of 155mm ammunition each month to keep up with demand.

"Ammunition availability might be the single most important factor that determines the course of the war in 2023," US defense experts Michael Kofman and Rob Lee wrote in December for the Foreign Policy Research Institute, adding that Ukraine will depend on international stockpiles and production for access to the ammunition it needs.

The United States has rarely seen production shortages in ammunition and missiles to the degree the country currently faces. While there was a brief precision missile shortage in 2016 following fights in Libya and Iraq, The Times reported, the US has largely been engaged in short-term, high-intensity fights such as the Persian Gulf War, or prolonged, lower-intensity missions like the war in Afghanistan, which allowed for the stockpile to be rebuilt as needed.

Now, as tensions rise among global superpowers, production and munition limitations in the US — caused by supply chain shortages, as well as Cold War-era reductions in capacity, The Times reported — have become of grave concern among defense professionals.

"This could become a crisis. With the front line now mostly stationary, artillery has become the most important combat arm," according to a report by The Center for Strategic and International Studies. "Ukraine will never run out of 155 mm ammunition―there will always be some flowing in―but artillery units might have to ration shells and fire at only the highest priority targets. This would have an adverse battlefield effect. The more constrained the ammunition supply, the more severe the effect."

Earlier this month, the Biden administration proposed a record-breaking $842 billion budget for the Department of Defense. In an effort to address the munitions shortage, the proposed budget includes $19.2 billion for modernizing facilities "that support readiness improvements," as well as increasing production of naval and anti-strike missiles, in an aim to support the country and its allies through this "decisive decade."

While improvements to production facilities have been budgeted for going forward, the US is currently pushing suppliers to capacity to meet current wartime demands in Ukraine and keep pace with China's production.

"When it comes to munitions, make no mistake," Kathleen Hicks, the deputy defense secretary, said during a briefing earlier this month on the 2024 budget proposal: "We are buying to the limits of the industrial base even as we are expanding those limits, and we're continuing to cut through red tape and accelerate timelines."

Representatives for the Department of Defense did not immediately respond to Insider's request for comment.

Nah, it's fine, because Ukraine is the most important conflict in the entire world since the end of WWII. So what if we further deplete our stockpiles of ammunition? Everything's gonna be just fine. Hey, we're the United States, right? Things will work out automatically. Nothing can happen to us. There's no danger. The Chinese aren't chomping at the bit. The Iranians- who have stated to the world that their objective is to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth- are months away from developing their own nuclear weapons, and those guys are perfectly sane and rational.

Russia can't seal the deal in the Ukraine, but don't forget that even though we see Ivan bogged down and floundering, if we don't stop them now, there will be Russian tanks rolling across Europe. I don't quite understand how that works, but I don't need to, 'cause saving Zelenskyy's ass is everything, everything, man!

Screw everything else. We gotta stop those commies in places where they used to be anyway. Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

Don't worry. All we need is some more green energy shit and six more years of President Grandpa and his Merry Band of Blithering Idiots.

I feel sorry for both Ukrainian and Russian Christians grappling with a politicized Church:


UN Issues Rare Condemnation As Zelensky Moves To Evict More Monks, Seize Churches

In January monks of the ancient Kiev-Caves Lavra were ousted from a main cathedral church in favor of the nationalist state-backed "Ukrainian Orthodox Church" (UOC).

And now there's a standoff between Orthodox Christians and police over the future of fate of the 11th century Kiev-Pechersk Lavra. The monks say they'll stay at their monastery and home for "as long as physically possible". The monastery said "There is no legal foundation" state's expulsion order, and many thousands of supporters have stood side-by-side with the monks over days.

https://www.zerohedge.com/geop...teries-zelensky-govt

The ‘situation’ pertaining to all things ‘Ukraine’ may have just hit “Ludicrous speed!” with this new troubling development as reported by Treehouse (with links to Newsweek and ZH within it) -

TikTok Blamed for Ukraine Ammunition Shortage

Some of the article. . .

“According to multiple sources, Ukraine is running out of ammunition in the war against Russia. However, according to Newsweek who is pushing the message from the Nordic Ammunition Supply Company, TikTok cat videos are to blame. Yes, you read that correctly…

(Newsweek) – One of Europe’s largest ammunition manufacturers has said it’s unable to expand to meet new quotas and respond to Ukraine’s increased demand because a nearby data center is using up all the electricity in the central Norway region to store TikTok videos.

The Norwegian group Nordic Ammunition Company, better known as Nammo, told the U.K. newspaper Financial Times that there’s no surplus of energy for its Raufoss plant, where the new factory was planned.

The electricity of the region is being used up by a data center whose bigger client is TikTok. The embattled social-media platform has come under increased scrutiny in the U.S. for its ties with China. “We are concerned because we see our future growth is challenged by the storage of cat videos,” Nammo chief executive Morten Brandtzæg told the newspaper.

Local energy provider Elvia confirmed to the Financial Times that the network has no electricity to spare, and that the energy is allocated on a first-come, first-served basis. Should Nammo require more energy, it will take time to make this available to the ammunition manufacturer. (read more)

Europeans must immediately stop watching cat videos, in order to protect Ukraine.”

It would be a catastrophe, obviously, if the world found out about the “Enough with the cat pictures” thread because the collective energy consumed viewing it would suck the earth into a black hole or worm-hole leading to a bizarro universe or something.

It fits in perfectly with this burlesque.

I didn’t get screenshots of it in time, but there’s a recently closed thread on Reddit started by a “Ukrainian active duty warrior” that was heavily redacted. Somewhere in the debate, someone mentioned closing the churches and evicting the monks and the “warrior” replied with “Dude I fucken wish we did (we didn’t).” What a bizarre response. It tells more than he meant to say, of course, about the mindset over there about some things. I didn’t get screenshots of that, but I did get screenshots of his link to another forum in that same exact comment chain where a Ukrainian was selling Russian corpse loot, but what was noteworthy was his avatar was an SS soldat. Someone said something about it and he promptly deleted the link. That he didn’t think twice about posting it in the first place also says some things.

Enough interaction with the guys over there actually doing the fighting is painting a picture very different from what the news media and the warhawks in this forum would have everyone believe. I got into an argument with some Ukrainian fuck last summer, telling him that shooting captured Russians in the groin was probably not the right thing to do because we’ve all decided stuff like that is a war crime and he came at me for months after I told him I wasn’t going to waste my time anymore and it was all “THEY STARTED IT, WE’RE DEFENDING OUR HOMELAND, WE WILL DO WHATEVER WE HAVE TO AND YOU CAN’T SAY ANYTHING BECAUSE IT WASN’T YOUR COUNTRY INVADED YOU SOFT AMERICAN” while he’s continually and openly advocating war crimes.

I don’t watch the news. When you get all your news from the internet, you know it’s going to be biased, so when this thing touched off, I was careful about believing what I was seeing or hearing and that filter helped lay bare that both sides are doing horrible things and that both countries are led by dipshits. In this culture of ours where absolutely all that was believed or understood or agreed upon before is now ambiguous, the only thing that is now binary is politics, and in that, we’ve been told that supporting Ukraine is right and anything short of full commitment to that is wrong. After all we’ve been through as a nation since about 2008, I can’t believe there’s anyone on the right who isn’t, at the absolute very least, very wary of the narrative. The others who are willing to go along with it because just this once, what they want seems to align with what the leftists want and it looks like a free win apparently aren’t reading and seeing the same things I am. When I point this stuff out to people I choose to engage with, it keeps coming back to “dude, we’re destroying our oldest and biggest rival for fractions of a penny on the dollar with 1990’s hand-me-downs” and it’s bullshit.

Sammy The Bull says, follow the money.