quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Until then, it's a pipe dream to think the Ukrainians will prevail, and win or lose, there is no justification for the United States draining its life blood for the corrupt Ukrainian government.

We're not "handing" the Russian anything, because this is not our fight, though the brainwashing and propaganda has been very effective, no doubt.

Define "its life blood." Is the United States' lifeblood or Ukraine's?

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
...And the stuff about how we're helping deplete Russian resources?

Not to mention that we're depleting our own resources to do so...Massive amounts of military equipment, ammunition and ALL the money, which we're printing in order to finance this endeavor, all in furtherance of this misguided quagmire!

quote:

Originally posted by DanH:
Define "its life blood." Is the United States' lifeblood or Ukraine's?

Ours, of course. US taxpayer money flushed down the drain. Military goods, gone, and not quickly replaced. Utter damn foolishness.

Good God, Biden and the Democrats support this! How much proof do you need that throwing money at this war is wrong?

would have been a lot cheaper to ship all that stuff he left in Assmanistain to the Ukraine, look at all the munitions and equipment that could have been used...

But yeah, Ukraine is a Buydem money pit, he's working hard at hiding the corruption that he put together for his family to feed on....

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
I find it hilarious that the supporters of US involvement in this East European border conflict point to the "Cold War" of the 20th Century, to contain the Russians who- and here's the best part- you claim daily demonstrate in this conflict how weak they really are; for instance, taking the better part of the year to capture a city. And you guys say this stuff with a straight face, completely unaware of the contradiction in your argument.

Well, that's the thing. We know from Chechnya and earlier attacks on Ukraine that Russia will try to win on the cheap and quickly. If they get knocked back, they regroup and rearm and attack again. Putin's made the mistake of thinking he could take Ukraine so quickly that neither Ukraine nor the West would react swiftly enough to stop him. In this case he was wrong, so it makes sense to weaken Russia as much as possible before they get smart, disengage, and regroup and rearm to try again.

quote:

And the stuff about how we're helping deplete Russian resources? Good grief! Show me how we are weakening our real enemy in the 21st Century- China. The supporters of US involvement in this ridiculous war are fighting last century's battles while ignoring the genuine threat to the United States.

It seemed pretty clear a year ago that China was waiting to see how the West responded to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. They've made noises and feints since then, but have pretty much quieted down and backed off since. As I've argued earlier, this gives us a chance to deal with Russian and Chinese aggression separately, rather than trying to deal with both of them on more or less opposite sides of the world at the same time.

quote:

Biden and the Democrats support this!

Why let your thinking be driven by Biden and the Democrats? If it doesn't make sense to simply agree with them - and it clearly doesn't - then it makes no sense to simply push for the opposite of whatever they want. To do so is still to suspend one's own judgement in favor of Biden's and leave Biden in control of what issues are discussed.

quote:

Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
Why let your thinking be driven by Biden and the Democrats? If it doesn't make sense to simply agree with them - and it clearly doesn't - then it makes no sense to simply push for the opposite of whatever they want. To do so is still to suspend one's own judgement in favor of Biden's and leave Biden in control of what issues are discussed.

Let me get this straight... if I don't agree with Biden then I should join sides with him to show my disdain for his participation in a war that has no strategic benefit to the US?

quote:

Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
^^ We've had US military personnel there for months now just to be able to document that military hardware doesn't wind up "Somewhere else". You can wager whatever you want, but, under those circumstances, you kinda have to prove the stuff is getting hijacked and sold off before anyone has any reason to believe that that's true.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
So, a victory counts only if it's swift?

No, but if it takes Russia ten or eleven months to take a town of 72,000 (in peacetime) that lies only a few miles from lines Russia completely controls, then I think its necessary to ask whether Russia actually has the power to win.

You keep saying Ukraine cannot prevail. With "victories" like this, why would anyone expect Russia to prevail if we don't either cut off supplies to Ukraine or force Ukraine to concede? There's simply no reason to hand those clowns a victory like it's some kind of participation trophy.

Ah yes, like the 3 billion dollars 1000s of accountants just found?
Or the rampant corruption in Ukraine? Like the televised bribery?

quote:

Originally posted by Bytes:

quote:

Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
Why let your thinking be driven by Biden and the Democrats? If it doesn't make sense to simply agree with them - and it clearly doesn't - then it makes no sense to simply push for the opposite of whatever they want. To do so is still to suspend one's own judgement in favor of Biden's and leave Biden in control of what issues are discussed.

Let me get this straight... if I don't agree with Biden then I should join sides with him to show my disdain for his participation in a war that has no strategic benefit to the US?

Il Cattivo's response is so obtuse, it's not even worth addressing directly.

quote:

Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
I have a hard time seeing this as anything but a continuation of the Cold War that Putin revived

I've asked this many times now and have not gotten an answer: How much did the Ukraine provide for their own defense every year since '91? Click Here To Find Out! Seems to me, that if Ukraine was worried about Russia, they would have beefed up defenses, not increased spending on education (also available at the link). If the Uke's weren't/aren't worried about their defense, why the hell should we? This has never been about the defense of Ukraine but about hiding dirty money and laundering billions of tax payer dollars so that the political elite in THIS country can live lavishly.

If the Ukrainians stop Russia now, do you believe they'll live in peace for the rest of existence? Dumb fucking outlook if you ask me (and every sane member on this board). What you're wanting the US to do, is sink money into "protecting" the little Uke's from the Big Bad Russian's every time there is a conflict in the area. When does it end? 3023? 4023? Hell, how about the year 10,423? That should be plenty of time for Ukraine to deliver a "death by a thousand cuts" to Russia, NO?

I'm gonna break this down kindergarten style for the slower folks on the board:
China is using US doctrine from the Cold War against us. I don't think I can put it any more simply. Keeping your head buried in Zelenskyy's ass isn't gonna keep the Chicom's from gaining influence around the world.

quote:

Keeping your head buried in Zelenskyy's ass isn't gonna keep the Chicom's from gaining influence around the world.

Bingo. China isn’t deterred. China is playing a long game, much longer than the reactionaries supporting this war.

quote:

Originally posted by Bytes:
Let me get this straight... if I don't agree with Biden then I should join sides with him to show my disdain for his participation in a war that has no strategic benefit to the US?

No, I'm saying you shouldn't let what an idiot like Biden thinks affect how you think about things at all.

quote:

Originally posted by mutedblade:
If the Ukrainians stop Russia now, do you believe they'll live in peace for the rest of existence?

No, I'm saying that Russia's behavior under Putin has been consistent. If a major attack doesn't work, then back off, regroup and rearm, and attack again in a few years. The way to stop that here is to back the Ukrainians in getting back their 1991 borders now, while Russia still has its thumb up its own butt, and bringing them into NATO rather than bothering with some kind of war of a million cuts or another.

As for China gaining influence around the world, how's that going for them? Their economy sucks, they're facing massive defaults on Belt and Road loans around the world, their neighbors are gearing up both their military readiness and, in the case of Korea and Japan, their manufacturing capabilities to sustain a war. They've been at the influence-building game for years now; has that influence really translated itself into a credible threat to us? I ask because there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of people who think that they're going to be ready to take us on militarily for some years.

quote:

Originally posted by P220Smudge:
China is playing a long game, much longer than the reactionaries supporting this war.

Sure. But they see Biden's time squatting in the White House as a window of opportunity where we have a weak "President", economic problems and a divided country and should therefore be least able to resist whatever they do. The question at the moment is how to get through that period of time without China launching an attack on Taiwan. How we deal with China over the long term is obviously going to have to wait until we get someone reasonably competent and reasonably honest in the White House anyhow, since Biden clearly isn't going to do anything about it.

Il Cattivo: the US should not support further war in Ukraine. It gains us nothing and costs us much. Regardless of the outcome, which will certainly not be in our favor, our nation will be poorer and weaker because of this foolish course of action you and Biden have advocated. It is truly a stupid thing that we are doing to prolong the conflict.

quote:

Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
their neighbors are gearing up both their military readiness and, in the case of Korea and Japan, their manufacturing capabilities to sustain a war.

Isn't it fun to point out HOW countries adjacent to China are handling their defense when threatened but keep puttering along like Ukraine didn't know they lived next to a bully? Their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd order of business should have been to keep Russia out of it's borders, but they knew Uncle Sugar would throw money their way to keep dirty deeds dead and buried. If the US ever stops sending money, guns and gear, watch how many politicians will get rolled up in controversy. Hell, the IRS/DOJ are already doing everything they can to cover for the political elite here.

quote:

Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
No, I'm saying that Russia's behavior under Putin has been consistent. If a major attack doesn't work, then back off, regroup and rearm, and attack again in a few years. The way to stop that here is to back the Ukrainians in getting back their 1991 borders now, while Russia still has its thumb up its own butt, and bringing them into NATO rather than bothering with some kind of war of a million cuts or another.

Ukraine will never be part of NATO during our lifetime. The reason: Ukraine is a Catch-22 and Europe knows it. The other members don't want to fight another European war based on a border spat that would likely SPILL INTO THEIR OWN BORDERS. You have a lot more faith in NATO and Article 5 than the members of NATO. Funny that the Ukraine has been trying for years to become a member and they keep getting stonewalled

quote:

Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
Sure. But they see Biden's time squatting in the White House as a window of opportunity where we have a weak "President", economic problems and a divided country and should therefore be least able to resist whatever they do.

I know you were talking specifically about China here, but I find that it fits with Russia as well. There's nothing for Russia to lose at this point with plenty to gain. Follow the dumb fuck Biden into driving this country to it's knees by throwing American tax money to cover up >>corruption<< which is what most recently kept Ukraine out of NATO

quote:

Originally posted by Il Cattivo:

quote:

Originally posted by Bytes:
Let me get this straight... if I don't agree with Biden then I should join sides with him to show my disdain for his participation in a war that has no strategic benefit to the US?

No, I'm saying you shouldn't let what an idiot like Biden thinks affect how you think about things at all.

Got it. I'm back to where I started. I don't support or trust Biden's judgement / motives in having us participate in a very expensive war that has ZERO strategic value to the US. He is always wrong about everything, no exceptions.

Remember- this isn’t Biden making decisions; it is the globalist puppet masters that are intentionally weakening us at every turn. Soft on crime installed pols and prosecutors. Tranny rights. Support for rioting under the guise of legitimate protest. A literal wave of invaders to overtax the job base, drain federal monies for “benefits”, and flood communities with thugs from all over the world (and infected with all manner of third world diseases for another hit angle). Unchecked democRAT big city crime. And on and on. Biden is just the empty shell mouthpiece they love to use because he doesn’t have the mental acuity to do anything more than parrot talking points.

A surprising development.

“Russian authorities have ordered residents of nine villages in the Belgorod region bordering Ukraine to evacuate their homes after anti-Putin rebel groups began capturing territory on Russian soil.

The Kremlin's order comes hours after a pair of explosions rang out in the city of Belgorod overnight amid drone attacks on the FSB security service building and Interior Ministry offices.

Regional governor Vyacheslav Gladkov confirmed the aerial bombing raid had caused fires at government buildings and urged citizens to take shelter amid the rebel attacks.

Ukrainian military intelligence said two armed Russian opposition groups, the Freedom of Russia Legion and the Russian Volunteer Corps, were behind the biggest armed incursion into Russian territory since Putin's February 24, 2022 invasion of his neighbour – recognised as a 'serious cause for concern' by the Kremlin.

The attack was seemingly unexpected, with the rebels able to gain control of several Russian towns in a matter of hours. …”

DailyMail article:
https://mol.im/a/12114117

James Kunstler says it best:

https://kunstler.com/clusterfu...to-black-in-ukraine/

^^^ good article:

Fade to Black in Ukraine

Have you noticed that the president of Ukraine (or, governor of America’s fifty-first state), Mr. Zelensky, has been globe-trotting for weeks: London, Helsinki, Paris, Hiroshima? That’s because this is one of those months when years happen; the world is changing at hyper-speed. He seems to be running scared, a little bit, trying to keep ahead of the changing game. What sounded like a great idea to a certain claque of so-called neo-cons in our country — to use Ukraine as a bear trap — has instead rather suddenly revealed Europe’s and America’s manifold bankruptcies and revolted the whole rest of the world outside of Western Civ. Oh, the wonder and nausea!

Try to imagine Mr. Zelensky’s predicament. Mighty America and redoubtable Europe conned the former comedian to thinking that if he went along with a genius scheme to ruin Russia and knock Vlad Putin off the global gameboard, his sad-sack country would be transformed into something like Ukro-Disneyworld, while he, Mr. Z, would be lionized and made rich beyond his wildest imaginings. His backup was the greatest hegemonic power the world has ever seen. The game was called Let’s You and Him Fight.

The poor schlemiel fell for it. He let NATO (that is, the USA) set-up, equip, and train the largest army in Europe, including battalions of bad-ass, hard-core Ukro-Nazis — who had previously been so useful in the American-sponsored 2014 Maidan “color revolution.” Mr. Z followed the US State Department’s orders to rain down rockets and artillery on Russian-speakers who lived in his own eastern provinces. He formally applied for membership in the NATO club. His country received billions of US dollars without audit oversight, just screaming to be creamed off by Ukraine’s leadership — who, after all, deserved a little something for all these goings-along. What could go wrong?

Thus, Western Civ kicked off Europe’s biggest hot war since the 1940s. So, in February, 2022, Mr. Putin had enough of the monkey business on his “front porch” and sent in a clean-up crew. Game on! The US neo-cons were ready to feed countless Ukrainian troops into a meat grinder that would, theoretically, exhaust the will and resources of the execrable bear and yield countless benefits reinforcing our dominant position in the world. Our hapless NATO “partners” went along with the program, despite being asked to commit economic suicide for the greater good of the alliance (or something like that). Anyway, they didn’t need that filthy Russian nat-gas. They were going “green” (Klaus Schwab said so, didn’t he?)

Meanwhile, the citizens of our country were groomed to perfection by the US Propaganda-Industrial Complex screaming “Russia, Russia, Russia,” at the behest of opinion-leader Hillary Clinton, a wannabe president. The news media demanded crucifixion for her opponent, Mr. Trump, who had idly tossed out the heinous idea that the USA and Russia could cultivate a friendly relationship, seeing as how the bear was no longer flying the red flag. Aye-yi-yi!!! He actually said that!?! The clueless orange boob!

Well, the folks running things in America — that is, the scores of unelected bureaucratic satraps guarding their nests throughhout the Okefenokee inside-the-Beltway, especially the gator-pit known politely as the Intel Community — decided to subject Mr. Trump to a one-man version of the exquisite torment intended for Russia, Russia, Russia: pain, ignominy, and ruin. They’re still at it six years later, since the relentless Mr. Trump will not give up his crusade to take back the White House and defenestrate all those attempting to defenestrate him. His enemies have captured all the levers of legal power, and yet, amazingly, they can come up with nothing but the most rinky-dink charges to railroad him in captured jurisdictions.

This internal political conflict in the USA has driven the populace plumb insane, while it has rendered our institutions rancid and left us subject to a pathocracy hiding behind a laughably fake chief executive. After a year-plus of America’s genius scheme to maintain world dominance, Russia is doing really well, thank you, in constructing a geo-economic framework for trade that will not be subject to the pranks of USA-led Western Civ. Russia is a nation of people who regard themselves as men and women, the toils of gender confusion happily absent. Ditto race hustles. Ditto banking Ponzis.

After two-plus years of “Joe Biden” — well, our country is bypassing the banana republic stage of dissolution and depravity and steaming quickly into a Hieronymus Bosch dystopia of financial, social, psychological and moral ruin. Every official utterance is a lie. Everything’s broken or breaking. And seemingly, on-purpose. The nagging question, of course, is on whose purposes?

And why is Mr. Zelensky flitting from one country to another the past month? Because the game of Let’s You and Him Fight is drawing to a close and Mr. Z may find himself fatally unpopular back on the home-front. He has managed to send upward of a hundred-thousand young Ukrainian men to their deaths in the meat-grinder, and perhaps a million more have hightailed it for other countries. Ukraine will now be a land of mostly women, children, and old folks — with just enough surviving soldiers left looking to hunt down the comedian who turned Ukraine into another one of history’s sick jokes.

https://kunstler.com/clusterfu...to-black-in-ukraine/

After about 30 hours, the Russians seem to have pushed the ... other Russians back into Ukraine. Their ministry of defense claims that over 70 of about 80 attackers were killed, but such numbers are typically made out of thin air. The situation on the border remains tense though, which was of course the entire purpose. Any military effect is largely in the PsyOps realm.

The Russians were already frantic about the expected counter-offensive before, with milbloggers citing their "Ukrainian sources" and "intercepted chatter" that it will happen before the end of April ... no, on 9 May, to spoil Victory Day ... no, in the last third of May, for real this time ... and recently have reported rumors that there will be an attack on the Belgorod region with the aim to create a cordon sanitaire on the Russian side of the border, too. Now that there has actually been an incursion there, those rumors seem validated, increasing the compulsion to chase after any others that the next attack will happen here ... or there ... or over there, stretching troops thin to cover everything, just in case. Sure enough, they're already reporting plans for a 20-kilometer thrust into the Belgorod region. I think they're letting themselves being played by their "sources", myself.

BTW, anyone actually interested in Ukraine as an issue rather than an exchangeable talking point promoted by partisan media for domestic purposes should follow real Russian sources rather than propaganda laundry outfits and clickbait conspiracy mongers aimed at clueless Westerners. In the age of website auto translation, there's really no excuse not to, though obviously it will be imperfect and nuances will get lost. You'll find that even among supporters of the war, there are different camps, frequently critical of official policy, and even more so of each other. The Rybar Telegram channel is a good initial access point; even without machine translation, they produce very good situation maps in multiple languages.

If you want real scathing takes, seek out Igor "Strelkov" Girkin, former FSB agent, volunteer fighter in the 2014 Donbas secession war, and for some time "defense minister" of the Donetsk rebel republic. This guy is very astute, but also an ultra-hardliner who thinks the current Russian government is ruled by an elite failing the country because it still wants to appease the West, and shys away from proper conduct of war IOT reach a negotiated settlement. He'll even attack Putin himself, a red line few will cross. Finally, for the opposition view, there's Meduza, a news site in Latvian exile; they actually have an English issue, too.