quote:

Trying to get an overview:

Is holstering a round-chambered/fully-cocked P320 somewhat the same

as holstering a round-chambered/fully-cocked/safety-off Hi Power,

or a loaded DA/SA revolver with the hammer fully cocked?

Relatively short, lightweight trigger pulls ready to go?

That has been my contention.

SIG weighs in on Montville PD incident :
https://www.sigsauer.com/blog/...-department-incident

The 320 has also always been drop safe, and never fires out of battery.


Baghdad_bob.jpg

Those pictures certainly “appear” to show a gun that isn’t fully holstered. I have moved away (mostly) from the 320 but if I was going to carry one I would have the proper holster, the gun in the holster, and stay away from the WML rigs that have big openings.

The 320 is more susceptible to negligent trigger pulls than dingus strikers. I think they are safe but they are much less tolerant of complacency, which this case seems to be.

quote:

Originally posted by DirectDrive:
SIG weighs in on Montville PD incident :
https://www.sigsauer.com/blog/...-department-incident

This serves to reinforce the point I've been beating like a dead horse.

quote:

Originally posted by Voshterkoff:
The 320 has also always been drop safe, and never fires out of battery.


Baghdad_bob.jpg

One could argue that there WAS a drop-safe issue.
(Addressed in the 2017/18 time frame)

A post-upgrade P320 CANNOT fire out of battery.
.

Interesting...A few months ago, I encountered an LEO ordering food at a popular local eating establishment in Manchester, NH, the largest city in the Granite State, and observed that the Retention Hood of his Level IV Safariland Holster was open. I approached the Officer and shared my observation in order to advise him of the condition, assuming he may not be aware. He was a younger Officer and I indicated that I had a similar Safariland Holster, though it was a Level II Holster with the Retention Hood only. His response was that he preferred to keep the Retention Hood open at times as it facilitated a quicker draw of the Pistol, and that the ALS System would still retain his Pistol adequately. We had a cordial conversation and I made no further comment on the subject, though I was certain that choosing to leave the Retention Hood open was ill advised...Apparently that is the case!

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
Interesting...A few months ago, I encountered an LEO ordering food at a popular local eating establishment in Manchester, NH, the largest city in the Granite State, and observed that the Retention Hood of his Level IV Safariland Holster was open. I approached the Officer and shared my observation in order to advise him of the condition, assuming he may not be aware. He was a younger Officer and I indicated that I had a similar Safariland Holster, though it was a Level II Holster with the Retention Hood only. His response was that he preferred to keep the Retention Hood open at times as it facilitated a quicker draw of the Pistol, and that the ALS System would still retain his Pistol adequately. We had a cordial conversation and I made no further comment on the subject, though I was certain that choosing to leave the Retention Hood open was ill advised...Apparently that is the case!

That's very interesting.
It supports my theory that I think this UD (undesirable discharge) officer in Montville may be a bit of a "gunslinger", a high-speed, low drag guy.
1) Drop-leg holster
2) Open hood guard

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
and that the ALS System would still retain his Pistol adequately.

Im not a cop, but my Safariland holsters are ALS only, and they don’t come out. I believe most military Safariland holsters are also ALS only.

The Safariland ALS system retains the gun securely, but that’s not the point of additional retention features. Higher “retention” levels are to make it more difficult for the gun to be taken out of the holster by an attacker. The old common thumb break strap over the hammer of a revolver retained the gun in the holster, but it was easy for an assailant to open or for it to even be released during a struggle or other event when pressure was applied to the snap extension.

Many of the concerns about an attacker’s being able to defeat retention device(s) and gain control of an officer’s pistol are, IMO, much more theoretical than actual hazards, but all it takes is one demonstration of how a weapon can be snatched from a holster by overcoming its features for the cry to go up that they must be changed or enhanced.

But if a holster is mandated and has certain retention features, then they should be employed every time, all the time. I’ve often had to tell trainees to use all the retention devices on their holsters because they can often draw faster or more confidently if they’re left open. Other than security of the weapon, the problem is that if they always practice, for example, with a rotating hood open, but it’s closed either deliberately (“Close your holster hood!” “Yes, sergeant”) or inadvertently and then they need to draw the gun, that could be very bad. If they’re totally unpracticed with the hood closed and need to get their gun out Right Now! …, well hopefully we get the picture.

But criticizing a drop leg holster as “gunslingerish” reminds me of way back in the day when anyone who practiced drawing from the holster and then firing at a target was a “cowboy” and if there was ever an unintentional discharge, “Yup: He was probably fast-drawing.” I don’t consider drop leg holsters to be ideal for uniformed patrol carry by LEOs for a couple/three reasons, but there are sometimes legitimate reasons for the practice, and I wouldn’t make assumptions.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
But criticizing a drop leg holster as “gunslingerish” reminds me of way back in the day when anyone who practiced drawing from the holster and then firing at a target was a “cowboy” and if there was ever an unintentional discharge, “Yup: He was probably fast-drawing.” I don’t consider drop leg holsters to be ideal for uniformed patrol carry by LEOs for a couple/three reasons, but there are sometimes legitimate reasons for the practice, and I wouldn’t make assumptions.

On this we disagree.
The drop-leg holster is very poor idea for an officer involved in a foot chase.
Much better to have the duty weapon high and tight on the waist where it's "quieter" and arguably safer.

quote:

Originally posted by DirectDrive:
That's very interesting.
It supports my theory that I think this UD (undesirable discharge) officer in Montville may be a bit of a "gunslinger", a high-speed, low drag guy.
1) Drop-leg holster
2) Open hood guard

The holster in the still pictures on Sig's website appears to be a dropped and offset as opposed to a drop-leg holster.

But this still begs the question of what actually moved the trigger? Something would have had to apply rearward pressure to the trigger to make the pistol fire. So what was it?

Even with the hood open and the pistol not fully seated, anything shoving the pistol down farther shouldn't be any different than re-holstering.

quote:

Originally posted by DirectDrive:

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
Is it me, or are the multiple different holsters worn by the Officers in that video. I believe I'm seeing three different holsters there...

Looks like different flavors of Safariland.
The holster in question looks like a drop-leg, single strap.

If I were king, I wouldn't allow a drop-leg holster.
And depending on the pistol, possibly no WML holsters.

It's definitely NOT a 'Drop-Leg' Holster...NO Thigh/Leg strap either! Between the dark uniforms, black holsters, and poor contrast due to the lighting in the background, it's hard to tell exactly what Holster it is, but it's definitely belt mounted. Further, due to the fact that the Pistol wasn't fully seated in the Holster and the Retention Hood is open, assuming it's Safariland, it's difficult to determine if it's a Low-Ride, or Mid-Ride version either.

quote:

Originally posted by Broadside:

quote:

Originally posted by DirectDrive:
That's very interesting.
It supports my theory that I think this UD (undesirable discharge) officer in Montville may be a bit of a "gunslinger", a high-speed, low drag guy.
1) Drop-leg holster
2) Open hood guard

The holster in the still pictures on Sig's website appears to be a dropped and offset as opposed to a drop-leg holster.

But this still begs the question of what actually moved the trigger? Something would have had to apply rearward pressure to the trigger to make the pistol fire. So what was it?

Even with the hood open and the pistol not fully seated, anything shoving the pistol down farther shouldn't be any different than re-holstering.

In the video it looks like a single strap drop-leg holster to me.

Apparently something got into that trigger guard and against that trigger.
Could have been something from his fellow officer's belt.
It was right after that contact when the discharge occurred.

There is a world of difference between a qls and a drop leg thigh holster, but that’s not the point of the conversation. It definitely looks like the pistol wasn’t fully inserted into the holster at the start. I have a feeling that we will not see video of them removing the pistol from the holster and inspecting it.

quote:

Originally posted by Voshterkoff:

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
and that the ALS System would still retain his Pistol adequately.

Im not a cop, but my Safariland holsters are ALS only, and they don’t come out. I believe most military Safariland holsters are also ALS only.

While that may be true, the point/issue here is NOT that the Pistol could/would come out, but rather that it was never really in the Holster! Had the Officer engaged the Retention Hood, or attempted to do so, it would have been apparent that the Pistol was NOT fully seated in the Holster, and this never would've happened.

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
Interesting...A few months ago, I encountered an LEO ordering food at a popular local eating establishment in Manchester, NH, the largest city in the Granite State, and observed that the Retention Hood of his Level IV Safariland Holster was open. I approached the Officer and shared my observation in order to advise him of the condition, assuming he may not be aware. He was a younger Officer and I indicated that I had a similar Safariland Holster, though it was a Level II Holster with the Retention Hood only. His response was that he preferred to keep the Retention Hood open at times as it facilitated a quicker draw of the Pistol, and that the ALS System would still retain his Pistol adequately. We had a cordial conversation and I made no further comment on the subject, though I was certain that choosing to leave the Retention Hood open was ill advised...Apparently that is the case!

If he was my trainee, I'd have chewed his ass. The retention devices on your holster exist to protect you from a gun grab. I have a couple of friends who are alive today because of the retention devices on their SLS/ALS holsters. The likelihood of going hands on with a suspect is way higher than the likelihood of shooting somebody, and if you're in a tussle the last thing you want is the bad guy getting control of your gun.

If you're not confident in your draw from retention, the solution is to train more. Don't walk around with the retention disengaged...work it enough times dry that you're confident with it. I've done so many drawstrokes with mine that if I accidentally leave the hood down it takes me longer to get the gun out than if it was properly closed because the process is so ingrained that's it's basically automatic. I've had to draw under real-world pressure multiple times, and while I'm not Grand Master USPSA shooter from a competition rig fast, I've never had an issue getting my gun out in a timely manner. Training works.

From the screenshots in the photo, not only was that cop wrestling with a guy while his retention was disabled, it also appears that his gun wasn't even fully-seated in the holster. It's hard to say what actually pulled the trigger, but getting into physical altercations with your gun hanging halfway out of your holster isn't a recipe for success with any platform.

Thread drift but its something we deal with so.... I make it a point to point out the issue with leaving the hood down on the ALS besides whats been bought up, which are good points, is also that you were trained to defeat all of those safeties during the draw. If your thumb goes down under stress and doesn't find the ALS it seeks typically it screws up the draw stroke and you are actually slower. Try it some time if you haven't and you'll see there's a microsecond of hunting for something that isn't there and then moving to the lever. I've shot against people with less than lvl 3 and for road stuff I'm fine with the 3. I've also found that those types of people, and I'm generalizing, would be better putting more time into range. I'd have done the same thing though, point it out and then shrug. I'm sure you arent the first person to try to fix his stupid.

If the average trigger pull weight on a loaded and cocked P320 is only 5 lbs,

then it seems to me that the only safe holstering procedure for officers & civilians

is to unload-and-show-clear/trigger down to a vigilant SO behind them

who makes sure no cover garment, holster appendage or errant blue ice chip from an overhead airliner is going to operate the trigger before during or after the gun is seated.

Not sure how you made that leap in logic. It seems at least fairly certain at this point to acknowledge the gun wasn't seated into his holster. Say that again out loud. Even ignoring the willful defeat of the retention device (hood), it wasn't seated into the holster. There are valid concerns with the 320 perhaps, perhaps not, but being a dumbass and walking around putting hands on people with your gun half in your holster will end poorly regardless of gun choice.

If the PD issues a holster with certain retention devices, to not use them purposely or defeat them with intent, should be a firing offense. You can't let individuals undermine your training program 'cause they aren't quick enough with the retention features. Plus, if he had tried to move the hood the obvious unholstering would have been apparent.

320 "quirks" aside, this is another stupid policeman gun handling moment not a Sig 320 epiphany.

Best indicator that this is a stupid human moment is that Sig immediately and with both feet very publicly and with text and pictures demolished this PD. They aren't taking this lawsuit laying down and they shouldn't if they aren't at fault which they don't appear to be in THIS incident.