quote:

That device, known as a tab trigger, needs to be depressed “intentionally” to make sure the gun can fire. Without that tab being depressed, the gun can’t fire.

Without the trigger being depressed, the gun can't fire. Something had to have tripped it. And I don't believe a tab would help in these cases of firing while still holstered. Anything snagging the trigger would probably also depress the tab.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Strangely enough, SIG seems to have created a handgun that only shoots supervisors and detectives………

If it’s like Glock’s, then it wouldn’t. Glock’s doesn’t prevent the firing pin from hitting the primer.

Either the trigger was pulled or it wasn’t. If it was pulled, then the trigger tab does nothing. If it wasn’t pulled, then at least two failures would have had to happened and the trigger tab would still do nothing. If the gun wasn’t dropped, then there are no combinations of failures that could happen that would allow the firing pin to hit the primer that having a trigger tab would prevent.

With the P320, the striker safety lever would have to be jammed in the up position, or the tab would have to be broken off, or the piece on the striker that catches on that tab would have to be broken off. Then a second failure with the sear or the striker pin hook would have to happen.

Nobody seems to be claiming failed parts have caused these incidents, so operator error seems likely.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn;t this just a rehashing of incidents and thing already in common discussion? We've got a few threads on it, Bruce Gray has done testing/made comments on it as well. Are we beating a dead horse without additional info?

In addition to using a partially-cocked striker, rather than the fully-cocked striker of the P320, the safety blade (or tab) on the Glock trigger face can prevent inadvertent err "uncommanded" firing. If you don't think that this safety feature can prevent depression of the trigger, then you must not have examined a Glock closely. Objects entering the trigger guard from an angle can be defeated by the safety blade, and because of the trigger guard, this is just about the only way an object can approach the trigger in a Glock.

In order to defeat this safety feature on the face of a Glock trigger, an object is required to have complex movement inside the trigger guard. Now, if you have just the right object with the right shape and try hard, you can get a Glock striker to drop in this manner, but in instances of actual inadvertent firing, this is not how it goes; a person is not fidgeting with an object to get the angle just right and to keep the object from slipping off the face of the trigger.

I have pointed this out more than a few times, so I am certain that some of you are tired of hearing me say it, but it's the truth.

quote:

Originally posted by radioman:


While Jeff Cooper was a 1911 guy, he also said the DA revolver should be standard issue for those who were not masters of the .45

He was an interesting guy, and had a lot of useful things to say. But Cooper came from a different time, and I think much of his thinking is now outdated. The 1911 design and DA revolvers were the tech of his day, and more modern auto designs were just not around or not well enough developed to be very relevant.

And there can be nothing but good in having more ammo available in the gun.

I'm curious if the firearms in these reports received the "voluntary upgrade" from Sig. If so, either the upgrade didn't solve the problem (I doubt it), or the users had holster problems. I'm guessing it was a user issue. It will be interesting to follow.

The voluntary upgrade was to fix the problem of the gun firing when dropped. Not going off when being holstered. Which is a user error.

quote:

Originally posted by Paten:
The voluntary upgrade was to fix the problem of the gun firing when dropped. Not going off when being holstered. Which is a user error.

Maybe I misread the article, but it sounded like they were trying to say it happened while the gun was in the holster, not while it was being put in the holster. I’d agree that the latter is user error. I’m at a loss to understand how the former happens (in the unlikely event that it does).

They can try to frame the issue however they like. So far no one has been able to prove that the gun went off by itself and there has only been the persons word that they didn't pull the trigger. But they can't replicate the problem.

Why don't these departments issue P320's with the manual safeties? How many times have we heard about M17s or M18s going off in their holsters?

quote:

Originally posted by Paten:
They can try to frame the issue however they like. So far no one has been able to prove that the gun went off by itself and there has only been the persons word that they didn't pull the trigger. But they can't replicate the problem.

That's about it.

^^^Yup, the 'Alec Baldwin' defense...

What is interesting trying to follow this thread, I went to look up the roster in MA.

There may be 2 handgun lists in MA.

One for LEOs and one for the peons.

It appears that on both lists the P320 in MA requires a Manual Safety (MS in the model number).

I have no way of knowing if what I am looking at is up to date or true.

It could get interesting if the gun she was carrying was illegal in MA even for her.

It states no safety in the article.

As I’ve posted several times before, for anyone who believes that the striker of the P320 can move forward to fire the gun without pulling the trigger, please explain how that’s mechanically possible. Again: not “Anything could happen,” not “Some authority I respect says it could happen,” not “I knew a guy who …,” but a step by step explanation describing in detail how it’s possible with a mechanical block of the striker until the trigger is pulled and even if that malfunctioned (which normally would be in the blocked position) what would disengage the striker lug from the sear with its two engagement points without pulling the trigger?

Hmmm …? Anyone?
If you know, I am eager to learn.

As for the increasing number of claims about such a thing’s happening, in 1841 (yes, 182 years ago) Charles MacKay published a book, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, in which he explained how crowds, i.e., groups of people, are more likely to go along with fads and fallacies simply because the more people who believe them, the more likely it is for individuals to join in simply because the beliefs are popular and commonly accepted.

And when I was a kid with my father who was stationed in France, he would sometimes ironically quote from a 1920s song that “Fifty million Frenchmen can’t be wrong.” Many other people before and after have said, “If fifty million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing,” (or something very similar). I.e., being believed by many people doesn’t in itself make anything true. If we needed any modern examples, all we need do is pay the slightest attention to current politics.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:

quote:

Originally posted by Paten:
They can try to frame the issue however they like. So far no one has been able to prove that the gun went off by itself and there has only been the persons word that they didn't pull the trigger. But they can't replicate the problem.

That's about it.

Yeah, it is like "unintended acceleration" cases in cars. You stepped on the gas pedal instead of the brake.

quote:

Yeah, it is like "unintended acceleration" cases in cars. You stepped on the gas pedal instead of the brake.

Killed the Audi 5000 line, an excellent car that had no flaws other than stupid people and those looking to hit the legal judgement lottery

It’s obviously a different mechanical design, but I’m also convinced the overwhelming majority of Remington 700 NDs were due to screwing around. Usually, jacking with the trigger with the safety on and THEN it drops the pin when the safety is taken off.

Pale Horse, I wish we Iived in a world where Sig gave one of those shirts away with every P320.

How many P-320s have gone off while sitting holstered on a night stand or in a drawer? Zero?
Is it possible that these pistols are making a conscious effort to spontaneously discharge only when someone is carrying/handling them? If that's the case, they are truly evil.