Poor word choice on his part. I don’t believe he really meant wrestling with the suspect was negligent on the officers’ parts.

His point is the gun appears to be deeper in the holster after the altercation than before and that amount of movement would be enough to fire the gun if something in the holster caught the trigger.

Am I missing something here? Doesn't the 320 have a firing pin block, like most all modern guns, where you have to pull the trigger to move the block out of the way before the firing pin can even hit the primer? How is it physically possible for the gun to go off with out pulling the trigger? If, somehow, the striker slipped off the sear, wouldn't the firing pin block stop it from hitting the primer?

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by DirectDrive:
This guy comes on a little strong but he does a good breakdown of this Montville ND/AD incident.

He seems to make a good point about the position of the pistol in the holster before and after the discharge, but, “It’s negligence for a police officer to wrestle with an arrestee while wearing a holstered gun”‽

That is beyond ridiculous.

They were in a gray area.
Between intake and arrest, although it was an arrest.
There is a jailhouse procedure that he may have been referring to.

quote:

Originally posted by dsiets:
The results of the investigation could take months. If they keep the firearm and holster in the meantime and something happens again, what then? Is it the gun? Is it the holster? They need to be armed.
Switching to Glocks is an option to rearm the force for now. What they decide in the future...

I disagree with this ^^^

To send the gun in question to forensics and then turn around and order a different brand of pistol for all of your officers within hours of the incident ?
That shows me a dept that probably lacks leadership and discipline.

1) Rushing to judgment
2) Not waiting for forensics report
3) Suddenly ordering new pistols
Sounds chaotic

So Chief, when are we going to train on the new pistols ?

Midville is reportedly a new department (July 1) and it looks like they have some "procedure items" to work on.

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
Is it me, or are the multiple different holsters worn by the Officers in that video. I believe I'm seeing three different holsters there...

Looks like different flavors of Safariland.
The holster in question looks like a drop-leg, single strap.

If I were king, I wouldn't allow a drop-leg holster.
And depending on the pistol, possibly no WML holsters.

quote:

Originally posted by bob ramberg:
Am I missing something here? Doesn't the 320 have a firing pin block, like most all modern guns, where you have to pull the trigger to move the block out of the way before the firing pin can even hit the primer? How is it physically possible for the gun to go off with out pulling the trigger? If, somehow, the striker slipped off the sear, wouldn't the firing pin block stop it from hitting the primer?

It does and it should...and determining why the gun went off in spite of that should be part of the investigation. I agree with others here...examining the holster should be a critical component of that investigation.

When we first got our 320s, we had the carry model. The company we bought them from sent us a bunch of Safariland 6360s. We'd ordered them for our guns, with the Streamlight TLR-1. What we didn't know was that some of those holsters they sent us were for the Carry model, and a few of them were for a full-size (wrong holster). I was one of the officers that got issued the wrong holster.

I was coming from a non-railed 229 in an SS3 and had never used an SLS/ALS holster before, so I just figured that the gun was supposed to be a little loose in this newfangled "gun bucket". It wasn't until I started using it that I realized there was a problem...I'd sit down somewhere, stand up, and my magazine would fall out of my gun. I quickly realized that the "looseness" of my holster was allowing my gun to ride down far enough that part of the holster would ride against the mag release button and release the mag.

It took some doing because you have to take the screws out of the belt loop attachment to remove it in order to be able to see the part number, but I did that and looked it up. That's when I realized they'd given me a holster for a full-size gun. We looked into it and found out we had a few others that were the same way. We sent them back and the vendor replaced them with the right ones, but it's an easy mistake to make, and it might go unnoticed for a long time. Even if guys suspect something isn't right, most won't go to the trouble to actually take the thing apart to figure it out. Now that I'm aware of it I watch for it...I found one guy from another agency that had had the same thing happen and he had just stuffed a sock in the bottom of the holster to make the gun fit !

Now that particular issue never caused my gun to discharge, but it was definitely a problem. Given the right circumstances, it definitely could have made the gun more vulnerable to such a discharge if a foreign object got inside, as there was a lot of vertical play even when the gun was locked into the holster. A similar condition could exist if an officer is issued the correct holster but holsters his gun without his WML, or a different WML, installed.

quote:

Originally posted by bob ramberg:
Am I missing something here? Doesn't the 320 have a firing pin block, like most all modern guns, where you have to pull the trigger to move the block out of the way before the firing pin can even hit the primer? How is it physically possible for the gun to go off with out pulling the trigger? If, somehow, the striker slipped off the sear, wouldn't the firing pin block stop it from hitting the primer?

Yes, the 320 does have a block safety, I guess you'd have to call it a striker block. However, this video shows that it doesn't require a whole lot of trigger movement to disengage this safety. Trigger guard intrusion by a poorly-designed holster can easily explain these "uncommanded" discharges.

quote:

Originally posted by bob ramberg:
Am I missing something here? Doesn't the 320 have a firing pin block, like most all modern guns, where you have to pull the trigger to move the block out of the way before the firing pin can even hit the primer? How is it physically possible for the gun to go off with out pulling the trigger? If, somehow, the striker slipped off the sear, wouldn't the firing pin block stop it from hitting the primer?

Well, that is the point I have made repeatedly- the triggers are being pulled- or, more accurately- they are being pushed or pressed by objects entering the trigger guard. With the striker of the P320 being fully cocked, and with the absence of a safety tab (or blade, whichever term one prefers), all it takes is just a slight push on the trigger and BANG!!

It's as clear as day to me.

What effect, if any, does strong lateral pressure have on the trigger of a cocked P320? Perhaps strong lateral pressure with just the slightest rearward movement of the trigger. Does anyone know?

quote:

Originally posted by DirectDrive:

quote:

Originally posted by dsiets:
The results of the investigation could take months. If they keep the firearm and holster in the meantime and something happens again, what then? Is it the gun? Is it the holster? They need to be armed.
Switching to Glocks is an option to rearm the force for now. What they decide in the future...

I disagree with this ^^^

To send the gun in question to forensics and then turn around and order a different brand of pistol for all of your officers within hours of the incident ?
That shows me a dept that probably lacks leadership and discipline.

1) Rushing to judgment
2) Not waiting for forensics report
3) Suddenly ordering new pistols
Sounds chaotic

So Chief, when are we going to train on the new pistols ?

Midville is reportedly a new department (July 1) and it looks like they have some "procedure items" to work on.

I disagree with you. The Chief has no choice but to do what he did and you can thank lawyers for that. He’s had what appears to be a gun go off for no reason in his house and reports of the same gone doing the same thing other places. Let’s say he keeps the Sigs and the same thing happens the next day or 2 months later and that bullet hits someone. Now it will be argued that the Chief was negligent in keeping the guns in use and the city will write out a big check- a lot more than the money it costs for the new guns. They’ll argue that the Chief new there was a danger issue with the gun and he ignored that, putting people in danger. The Chief chose not to field a gun like the Glock that has a decades long record of safe police service and kept the faulty and dangerous Sigs in service causing the injury/death. I agree that he HAS to make sure the officers receive training on the new guns before they are fielded. Taking up the Sigs and putting different guns in the field and something going wrong is a lot more defensible than keeping the Sigs in the field and something going wrong.

I’m more interested in the type of holster used. We but Safariland holsters (6xxx series I believe) for admin/detectives for gen 5 Glock 17s with WML. We found out there was enough space in the opening to reach a finger in and pull the trigger with the gun completely in the holster. Called Safariland and they said yep, we know about that, sorry about your luck.

Another thought on the Chief’s decision to pull the Sigs- a cop has to have absolute certainty that 2 pieces of equipment will work- the radio and the gun. That incident plants doubt in his mind and the minds of all of his officers that their guns may not work as intended. Another reason why he had no choice but to make the change.

What baffles me is how simple it would be to resolve this issue.

1. Use a tab/blade safety trigger. This would greatly, if not completely, address any type of trigger guard incursion. (This is coming from someone who hates tab safety triggers, but if it makes the gun safer....)

2. Sell all 320s with a manual thumb safety. This option already exists! All military versions of the 320 (M17/18) come with thumb safeties. Why not civilian versions? (It's weird, you'd think it would be the opposite, with safeties on the civvy version, but not the mil spec.)

quote:

Originally posted by cooger:

quote:

Originally posted by DirectDrive:

quote:

Originally posted by dsiets:
The results of the investigation could take months. If they keep the firearm and holster in the meantime and something happens again, what then? Is it the gun? Is it the holster? They need to be armed.
Switching to Glocks is an option to rearm the force for now. What they decide in the future...

I disagree with this ^^^

To send the gun in question to forensics and then turn around and order a different brand of pistol for all of your officers within hours of the incident ?
That shows me a dept that probably lacks leadership and discipline.

1) Rushing to judgment
2) Not waiting for forensics report
3) Suddenly ordering new pistols
Sounds chaotic

So Chief, when are we going to train on the new pistols ?

Midville is reportedly a new department (July 1) and it looks like they have some "procedure items" to work on.

I disagree with you. The Chief has no choice but to do what he did and you can thank lawyers for that. He’s had what appears to be a gun go off for no reason in his house and reports of the same gone doing the same thing other places. Let’s say he keeps the Sigs and the same thing happens the next day or 2 months later and that bullet hits someone. Now it will be argued that the Chief was negligent in keeping the guns in use and the city will write out a big check- a lot more than the money it costs for the new guns. They’ll argue that the Chief new there was a danger issue with the gun and he ignored that, putting people in danger. The Chief chose not to field a gun like the Glock that has a decades long record of safe police service and kept the faulty and dangerous Sigs in service causing the injury/death. I agree that he HAS to make sure the officers receive training on the new guns before they are fielded. Taking up the Sigs and putting different guns in the field and something going wrong is a lot more defensible than keeping the Sigs in the field and something going wrong.

I’m more interested in the type of holster used. We but Safariland holsters (6xxx series I believe) for admin/detectives for gen 5 Glock 17s with WML. We found out there was enough space in the opening to reach a finger in and pull the trigger with the gun completely in the holster. Called Safariland and they said yep, we know about that, sorry about your luck.

Another thought on the Chief’s decision to pull the Sigs- a cop has to have absolute certainty that 2 pieces of equipment will work- the radio and the gun. That incident plants doubt in his mind and the minds of all of his officers that their guns may not work as intended. Another reason why he had no choice but to make the change.

Well, we completely disagree with each other.
I'm good with it.

quote:

Originally posted by cooger:
We but Safariland holsters (6xxx series I believe) for admin/detectives for gen 5 Glock 17s with WML. We found out there was enough space in the opening to reach a finger in and pull the trigger with the gun completely in the holster. Called Safariland and they said yep, we know about that, sorry about your luck.

That's been a known issue with Safariland WML-compatible 6XXX holsters for going on a couple decades now. It's not unique to them, but it's more of an issue with them than some other holsters... But it's also present on any number of different WML-compatible holsters, due to the need to have a cylindrical channel from the mouth of the holster to the muzzle that's large enough for the body of the light to pass through, and that light happens to be in line with the trigger, resulting in large gaps on either side of the trigger when the gun is holstered.

This is a bit less of an issue with the newer 7XXX series since the holster coverage goes a bit higher up the trigger area, but the design and build quality of those 7-series holsters sucks, and there are a several known holster failure issues that go along with that line. So the 6-series are actually still the better option of the two, even with the bigger gap around the trigger.

Safariland finally appears to be fully addressing these various 6-series and 7-series problems with their soon-to-be-released "Vault" line of duty holsters. But who knows what new issues will crop up with that new design...

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
What baffles me is how simple it would be to resolve this issue.

1. Use a tab/blade safety trigger. This would greatly, if not completely, address any type of trigger guard incursion. (This is coming from someone who hates tab safety triggers, but if it makes the gun safer....)

2. Sell all 320s with a manual thumb safety. This option already exists! All military versions of the 320 (M17/18) come with thumb safeties. Why not civilian versions? (It's weird, you'd think it would be the opposite, with safeties on the civvy version, but not the mil spec.)

The trigger blade safety may help some, although Glock with the blade safety had numerous ND/AD events when first being introduced.
Agree that there should have been an option for a Police Version of P320 with the MS like M17/18

quote:

Originally posted by cooger:

quote:

Originally posted by DirectDrive:

quote:

Originally posted by dsiets:
The results of the investigation could take months. If they keep the firearm and holster in the meantime and something happens again, what then? Is it the gun? Is it the holster? They need to be armed.
Switching to Glocks is an option to rearm the force for now. What they decide in the future...

I disagree with this ^^^

To send the gun in question to forensics and then turn around and order a different brand of pistol for all of your officers within hours of the incident ?
That shows me a dept that probably lacks leadership and discipline.

1) Rushing to judgment
2) Not waiting for forensics report
3) Suddenly ordering new pistols
Sounds chaotic

So Chief, when are we going to train on the new pistols ?

Midville is reportedly a new department (July 1) and it looks like they have some "procedure items" to work on.

I disagree with you. The Chief has no choice but to do what he did and you can thank lawyers for that. He’s had what appears to be a gun go off for no reason in his house and reports of the same gone doing the same thing other places. Let’s say he keeps the Sigs and the same thing happens the next day or 2 months later and that bullet hits someone. Now it will be argued that the Chief was negligent in keeping the guns in use and the city will write out a big check- a lot more than the money it costs for the new guns. They’ll argue that the Chief new there was a danger issue with the gun and he ignored that, putting people in danger. The Chief chose not to field a gun like the Glock that has a decades long record of safe police service and kept the faulty and dangerous Sigs in service causing the injury/death. I agree that he HAS to make sure the officers receive training on the new guns before they are fielded. Taking up the Sigs and putting different guns in the field and something going wrong is a lot more defensible than keeping the Sigs in the field and something going wrong.

I’m more interested in the type of holster used. We but Safariland holsters (6xxx series I believe) for admin/detectives for gen 5 Glock 17s with WML. We found out there was enough space in the opening to reach a finger in and pull the trigger with the gun completely in the holster. Called Safariland and they said yep, we know about that, sorry about your luck.

Another thought on the Chief’s decision to pull the Sigs- a cop has to have absolute certainty that 2 pieces of equipment will work- the radio and the gun. That incident plants doubt in his mind and the minds of all of his officers that their guns may not work as intended. Another reason why he had no choice but to make the change.

Apparently the Chief isn't 'really' a gun guy and doesn't 'really' know how they work! This is evidenced by the fact that he never even mentioned the Holster, and potentially never even considered it as a potential cause or contributing factor! Yes he had to do something, but that something should've included a thorough look at the holster!

quote:

Originally posted by DirectDrive:
This guy comes on a little strong but he does a good breakdown of this Montville ND/AD incident.
Suffer through it and look at the still photos and the slo-mo.
I believe that all of his points on this incident are spot on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCWyFH0P2LA

That is a very interesting video, DirectDrive. Thank you for sharing. The narrator does make some very good points. He takes the time to analyze the video for clues as to what happened.

I don't own any P320's and I'm really not interested in the platform. But I am curious to understand what happened. I did some googling and it appears that Montville, CT police department was only recently created and isn't that large as it seems they are able to re-equip the entire force with only 35 firearms.

It makes sense that if you are in that situation as police chief without the resources that a large city or state police agency would have, it would be better to cut your losses and go with a proven track record of 30 years.

But again, the TheYankeeMarshal makes some very good points in his YouTube video. I hope we get to see some type of follow up as to what happened.

The 320 is a great gun but not for everyone. I love the trigger pull weight and length but for me, without a thumb safety, I am leery of putting into ccw or even home defense rotation as the trigger pull length is so short. The M17/18 having a thumb safety is the perfect set up in my opinion but to have it as a front line gun for most officers, might be an issue as some officers have very little firearms experience/knowledge and ability in a stressful situation to disengage the thumb safety could be an issue. Of course having the right holster is crucial.

quote:

Originally posted by DirectDrive:
The trigger blade safety may help some, although Glock with the blade safety had numerous ND/AD events when first being introduced.
Agree that there should have been an option for a Police Version of P320 with the MS like M17/18

Yes, good point and I agree. There are people (some rather well-known) who think Glocks should also have manual safeties.

I guess they could do both as well, but personally, I would push for the thumb safety alone. Again, no need to redesign anything, just make the optional safety no longer optional but mandatory.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
What effect, if any, does strong lateral pressure have on the trigger of a cocked P320?

I tested four different P320 triggers just now.

The triggers all fit tightly and rigidly within the fire control units. When pressing as hard as I could with my thumb or even rapping on the sides of the trigger with a hammer and nylon punch, there was no movement to the rear. I also tried pressing on the side of a trigger with the trigger pressed back to take up the slack, and nothing.

The lightweight triggers of the “upgraded” models have a slight lateral (left/right) curve on the face and conceivably if something pressed in from the side and contacted that surface it could cause a (very) little rearward movement. Think of a ball being held in a track so that it could only move forward or backwards. A lateral pressure on the ball forward or to the rear of its centerline could cause it to move opposite to the contact point.

But the part of the trigger where any lateral pressure would cause rearward movement is extremely thin from front to back. Any movement caused by lateral pressure would be limited, in my estimation, to no more than 2 millimeters, perhaps less. (I have straight triggers in my pistols, but I examined a curved trigger that had been removed from one.) As for the normal movement of the trigger when pressed normally to the rear by the shooter, all four of my pistols had about 4 millimeters of slack before they met the resistance between the sear and striker lug. It then required another 3 to 4 millimeters to the rear to release the striker. I cannot envision any way that simple lateral pressure on the trigger could cause a discharge, even with significant independent rearward movement.

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:

quote:

Originally posted by DirectDrive:
The trigger blade safety may help some, although Glock with the blade safety had numerous ND/AD events when first being introduced.
Agree that there should have been an option for a Police Version of P320 with the MS like M17/18

Yes, good point and I agree. There are people (some rather well-known) who think Glocks should also have manual safeties.

I guess they could do both as well, but personally, I would push for the thumb safety alone. Again, no need to redesign anything, just make the optional safety no longer optional but mandatory.

Mandatory seems a bit extreme...You can do as you please, but leave the rest of us out of it, thank you!

Optional MS version would let the head of the dept make the decision.
I suspect it would have alleviated much of this ambulance-chaser litigation nonsense.