This thread is reminding me that I have to shop around for car insurance. USAA is killing me.

Not only is my Mach E an EV, it’s a Pug in car too

Not only do I NOT want a EV, I basically CANNOT have an EV. There's no place to charge the thing short of draping cables across my front lawn and sidewalk out to cars that we park on the street. I'm sure my borough would love that trip hazard.

Just saw an article about Wawas with EV charging and the writer asked a woman there charging her car how long she had been there and she told him 30 minutes and wasn't near done. This is just not a sustainable model when the public is used to driving up to a gas station and filling up and being back on their way in less than 5 minutes.

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Originally posted by pedropcola:

This thread is reminding me that I have to shop around for car insurance. USAA is killing me.

That's my major task today -- getting final quotes. I turn into a pumpkin at midnight tonight, will have to commit by 2359 EDT.

Been with Travelers for around ten years, great company, but premiums keep going up for no apparent reason. More than 20 years since either wife or I have had ticket, violation, or chargeable (at fault) accident -- rammed in the rear couple times while sitting at red light, took a hit amidship starboard side when Mercedes girl ran a red light at a high rate of velocity (captured on video, so there was no question about who was at fault).

So far, best competitive quote is from Amica, but no difference in premium, so will probably stick with the devil that we know (Travelers). Allstate is ridiculous, gecko and Flo are not acceptable, Farmers is leaving the state (Florida), I'm running out of options, just Travelers and Amica still in the picture.

Amica - No Brokers, No Agents, NO Middleman...Just Insurance!

I've had Amica for Home and Auto for over 15 years. They're direct to the consumer so No Agents, and therefore NO middleman to potentially drive up the cost. I've always received excellent customer service, whether I was adding/changing coverage or filing/processing a claim. I recommend them highly!

Not sure if it's offered in FL, but have you considered/rec'd a quote on Amica's 'Dividend policy' where you get a refund/rebate on your premium at the end of the policy term. Ultimately you do pay a lower premium, though the initial premium is higher. Amica claims the dividend is on average 5-20% of the policy premium. Full disclosure - I do NOT have the Dividend Policy and thus far chosen to pay less on the initial premium, so I've got no actual experience to convey on the dividend or that type of policy, but it may be right for you and a way to save money AND get good service!

https://www.amica.com/en/products/dividend.html

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
Just saw an article about Wawas with EV charging and the writer asked a woman there charging her car how long she had been there and she told him 30 minutes and wasn't near done. This is just not a sustainable model when the public is used to driving up to a gas station and filling up and being back on their way in less than 5 minutes.

It's not just the "used to...". It's also the time it'd add to a trip.

One of my best friends has a rather large parcel in northern Michigan. You have to take fifteen minutes of really rough two-track off the nearest two-lane blacktop to get to it.

It's about two-hundred miles, each way.

A quick glance suggests EV SUVs get 250-300 miles on a charge. The data I'm seeing suggests ±42 miles per hour of charging (Level 2 charger). So I'd be spending some ±5 hours, each way, charging the thing.

I don't think so, Tim.

At home: Not such a big problem. I could top it off before I leave. Up there? No electricity. He does have solar, now, but, that'd only be reasonable if the weather was clear. Otherwise my charging my EV would easily deplete his solar system's batteries--rather defeating the purpose of him having solar in the first place.

No. Thanks.

I agree that the cost of a car is order of magnitudes higher than most firearms. A high-performance car - EV or otherwise - is a luxury, not just basic transportation.

I also agree that the subsidies for EV vehicles and infrastructure are suboptimal investments. There should be investment in battery technology, etc., but pushing accelerated conversion to EV is not realistic or cost-effective. Mandating the move, v. consumer choice is a clear error.

Since I can't control that suboptimal investment choice, however, I will take advantage of it.

EV's are cool, hip, but not really there yet for mainstream, GM< Ford et al pulling back on normal cost EV's, mainly because they are selling them at big losses to keep up with the EPA mandates on CAFE to the tune of billions. Look for Government bail outs.

Link

EV market could become the 'next big flop': Economist

Just like Ford’s "Edsel" model in the 1950s, Trump administration economist Steve Moore cautioned that electric vehicles (EVs) may be the auto market's "next big flop."

"Henry Ford's son was named Edsel, and this was going to be the great car, all of the executives said, 'This is the car everybody's going to want to buy.' Ford made 500,000 of these new sedan cars, but guess what?" Moore said on "Varney & Co." Monday. "Nobody bothered to ask consumers whether they wanted the car."

"And of course, the Edsel was one of the great flops of all time," the economist continued. "I'm here to tell you, if these trends continue, we're going to see the EV market become the next big flop because car buyers don't want them."
Moore’s comments come as the EV push at Ford and General Motors hit a speed bump that’s cutting into the automakers’ profits and causing them to reevaluate their electric plans amid a price war and supply chain challenges.

Ford noted in its earnings report released last week that its EV unit posted a quarterly loss before interest and taxes (EBIT) of $1.33 billion – an acceleration after a loss of $1.08 billion in the prior quarter. It added that it’s cutting production of its Mustang Mach-E while scaling back about $12 billion in planned investments in the EV segment, including delaying its second battery plant in Kentucky.

General Motors saw its quarterly profit reduced by about $1.5 billion because of higher costs and the impact of selling more EVs, though it doesn’t break out losses from its EV unit in the same way Ford does.

GM CFO Paul Jacobson said that it would abandon an interim goal of building 400,000 EVs from 2022 through mid-2024, instead focusing on a goal of "getting to 1 million EVs of production by the end of 2025 alongside hitting our margin targets."

"Given the huge losses that these companies like Ford are suffering because of the EV mania, I saw a statistic this morning that Ford is losing something like between $40,000 and $60,000 per car," Moore reacted. "It's been a bad bet."

he economist further argued that auto industry-wide bailouts may be likely amid companies’ EV losses.

"The federal government is also already offering all of these sweeteners to get people to buy electric vehicles. You get a $7,500, basically, check from the government every time you buy an EV. Let's not forget that we're subsidizing the battery companies, all of these things," Moore noted.

"The taxpayers are paying for these things," he added. "And yet the most amazing thing is, even with all these sweeteners, Americans are still saying, I don't want them."

Speaking to car dealers around the country, Moore reported that their lots "are full of EVs" and only 10% of clients purchase EVs off the lot today.

"I think the car companies would be smart going to hybrids where you can have gas and an electric battery," the economist and adviser suggested. "But the car companies aren't making those cars. And the reason they aren't making them is because the government has increasingly mandate[d] that all cars be EVs."

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A quick glance suggests EV SUVs get 250-300 miles on a charge. The data I'm seeing suggests ±42 miles per hour of charging (Level 2 charger). So I'd be spending some ±5 hours, each way, charging the thing.

This is why Tesla (For now) is the only real way to road trip. Their supercharger network can top you off in 20-30 mins. The rest lag behind in a solution. (For now)

Honest question. You say "top off". Everything I have ever read says that 20-30 minutes is getting to 80% then the charger slows down to save battery life. So which is it? Is it topping off which implies a full 100% battery or is it getting the 80% mark, because that is a big difference considering a full gas tank is 5 minutes and back on the road.

Once again I will point out my anecdote from my road trip to Pensacola last month. The Tesla lady unsolicited told me how much she was hating the road trip with her new Tesla as she was charging it at a SuperCharger. "I wish we had brought the truck instead".

Those Tesla Superchargers are few and far between in Northern Michigan.

The nearest to my house is 140 miles round trip. I could have a charger installed at the house, but that won’t work at esigmatic’s friend’s hunting land.

quote:

Originally posted by myrottiety:


This is why Tesla (For now) is the only real way to road trip. Their supercharger network can top you off in 20-30 mins.

That's still not acceptable to a culture accustomed to being able to top off their tank and go in 2-5 minutes. What happens to all the people waiting in line to "top off" their EV's if you are taking 30 minutes each?

The whole concept is just stupid.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
I'm keeping my car for 2.5 more years until the extended warranty runs out. If they make an electric that suites my needs I will buy it. Range doesn't matter to me, I could bike to work. My criteria are higher ratio HP to weight than I can get in a gas car; under $45k; 0-60 under 5.5s; 8 year battery warranty; and local repair shops.

Give me those things and I'll buy one in a second.

First off when talking Power to Weight you need to remember that is Short Term Power. Start hot rodding an EV and you'll soon understand that has a rather severe effect on range. Another item that will effect your range is the total Mass you are hauling around. I've heard the electric Hummer tips the scales at over 9000 lbs. and it's not even armored. If you live on a gravel road you'll come to really loath these road pigs because that weight will cause some major ruts to form and the county won't be in any hurry to spend the money for re-grading. IF you have hills to climb that means you'll be drawing more power from the battery and even on level roads just hauling that extra mass around will impact the driving range.

Your not considering long term, like 3 years down the road. When the daily brownouts start happening in an effort to "conserve energy" The State of Feds will limit your hot rod EV to something like 40 HP maximum output. Sixteen year olds on skate boards will be blowing your doors off and some old geezer driving a 40 HP 1965 Beetle will leave you in dust because at 1500 lbs he'll have a huge weight advantage. Just remember, every one of those EV's on the road will be fully accessible to the government limiting your speed, acceleration, and how far you can drive. Because every one of them is connected to the Net. BTW, you will also have to pay for Hacker Protection software because that too will become common. If you don't like it and complain, what you will get is a "here is your stick so go piss up it" response.

Then there is the dirty little secret the Government keeps pushing under the rug. That is most EV's are powered by either Natural Gas Turbines or Coal. Gas Turbine generators run at a thermodynamic efficiency of 28-15%. If they have an exhaust mounted secondary turbine that efficiency can creep up to 43%. As for Coal, that's under 30%. Then you can subtract the average Line Loss that runs at 5% nationally but can dip down to 2% if you are close to the powerplant. You can guess what number is given by the greenies when pushed. Meanwhile a Gas Electric hybrid with regenerative braking can hit over 50% for efficiency and if they were to switch to a Locomotive powertrain that might hit 60% efficiency. The ONLY time that EV's are actually non poluting is if the power provided is 100% Nuclear, Solar, or Wind and guess what, that won't ever happen. It takes energy to build a solar panel and that has a carbon cost, It also take a lot of energy to produce a wind powered generator, so there is a rather high carbon cost in that. The plain truth is if you weigh in all the environmental damage with lithium batteries alone with all of the "hidden" carbon costs for EV, a simple gas engine hybrid is a whole lot better for the planet.

EV's have nothing to do with practicality or what "we" want. It's what the government says we will eventually have. In the end we won't have much to say about it. Too many investors and too much money to make. You think the government gives a rats ass if it takes you a month to travel across the country? Hell they don't want you travelling at all except in electric mass transit much less across the country.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:

quote:

Originally posted by myrottiety:


This is why Tesla (For now) is the only real way to road trip. Their supercharger network can top you off in 20-30 mins.

That's still not acceptable to a culture accustomed to being able to top off their tank and go in 2-5 minutes. What happens to all the people waiting in line to "top off" their EV's if you are taking 30 minutes each?

The whole concept is just stupid.

There is a bit of a mind set change required when owning an electric vehicle when you have the infrastructure to charge overnight (whether it be hotel, or at home). Instead of filling up so you are ready to go in the AM, your goal should be to arrive at your destination with a low charge, and charge overnight.

The 20-30 mins mentioned above can to take you from 20% State of Charge to about 80% SOC and is effective for through driving on longer trips. No need to charge to 80% SOC if you only have 50-100 miles left until you get to your destination.

--K

quote:

Originally posted by Kranky:

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:

quote:

Originally posted by myrottiety:


This is why Tesla (For now) is the only real way to road trip. Their supercharger network can top you off in 20-30 mins.

That's still not acceptable to a culture accustomed to being able to top off their tank and go in 2-5 minutes. What happens to all the people waiting in line to "top off" their EV's if you are taking 30 minutes each?

The whole concept is just stupid.

There is a bit of a mind set change required when owning an electric vehicle when you have the infrastructure to charge overnight (whether it be hotel, or at home). Instead of filling up so you are ready to go in the AM, your goal should be to arrive at your destination with a low charge, and charge overnight.

The 20-30 mins mentioned above can to take you from 20% State of Charge to about 80% SOC and is effective for through driving on longer trips. No need to charge to 80% SOC if you only have 50-100 miles left until you get to your destination.

--K

To a guy that has literally driven across the country in an emergency in a few days by swapping back and forth with my "co-pilot" and sleeping in the front seat the whole "taking time to charge" thing would be an absolute deal-killer for me with EV.

The car should not be the limiting factor in the journey.

quote:

Originally posted by KevH:

quote:

Originally posted by Kranky:

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:

quote:

Originally posted by myrottiety:


This is why Tesla (For now) is the only real way to road trip. Their supercharger network can top you off in 20-30 mins.

That's still not acceptable to a culture accustomed to being able to top off their tank and go in 2-5 minutes. What happens to all the people waiting in line to "top off" their EV's if you are taking 30 minutes each?

The whole concept is just stupid.

There is a bit of a mind set change required when owning an electric vehicle when you have the infrastructure to charge overnight (whether it be hotel, or at home). Instead of filling up so you are ready to go in the AM, your goal should be to arrive at your destination with a low charge, and charge overnight.

The 20-30 mins mentioned above can to take you from 20% State of Charge to about 80% SOC and is effective for through driving on longer trips. No need to charge to 80% SOC if you only have 50-100 miles left until you get to your destination.

--K

To a guy that has literally driven across the country in an emergency in a few days by swapping back and forth with my "co-pilot" and sleeping in the front seat the whole "taking time to charge" thing would be an absolute deal-killer for me with EV.

The car should not be the limiting factor in the journey.

Technologies (and resources) are different.

If I had an emergency, I would not have driven with a co-pilot across the country. The option I would have chosen would have been to fly. The EV and the ICE vehicle are both limited in the situation you describe.

--K

Teslas stock is down 18%, took a hit today, Musk has loss $41 paper billions this year

Link

quote:

Originally posted by PR64:
Not only is my Mach E an EV, it’s a Pug in car too

<snip>

I see what you did there......

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:
...great company, but premiums keep going up for no apparent reason.

Doesn't that just overcook your grits?!?!?

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Originally posted by Kranky:
The option I would have chosen would have been to fly.

--K

Wait until the gubmit gets their mitts into THAT sector of the travel industry...

1) I won't be stepping anywhere NEAR an aircraft that is battery powered,
2) I can't even IMAGINE the weight restriction that will be imposed on these new airframes...probably carry 25 people and,
3) For how far between charges?? Shit...it'll take you 2-3 days to fly IAH-SFO when I just did it in 3 hours 58 minutes last week.

These people are out of their ever-freaking minds! JSMH.....

My goodness there is some serious goofy rationale running around these EV threads. You can't seriously tell people that the goal of your next road trip is to plan it so that the charging station only gives you enough juice to get there, then you can charge overnight. What the fuck?

Usually changing attitudes doesn't actually involve a shittier product. Going from a 500 plus mile range and a 5 minute fill up to a 200 mile range and a 30 minute fill up is shitty math. Besides which the only planning I want to do to get to the Grand Canyon is look at a map. I don't want to have to flight plan the trip to time my charging stations correctly.

EV isn't ready for prime time. It probably never will be. Even when you get to the destination it is a HUGE assumption that you can charge there. Does your Father in Law have a 100 foot extension cord to reach your car parked out front? I doubt he's got a SuperCharger in his garage.

Yikes. The mental gymnastics being used here to justify a 60,000 dollar toy that can't do basic car stuff well is amazing. Driving 10 hours in one day is basic car stuff. EV's suck at this.