quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:

Conditions reading and adjusting for them is what it's all about.

I'm fortunate to have surrounded myself by some excellent LR shooters and very grateful to the individual who give their time to run steel matches. I was given sound advice at my first steel match, shoot what you got, work on fundamentals (trigger control, natural point of aim, bi-pod loading....), get rounds down range and most importantly learn to shoot in the wind.

About half the time when I practice I shoot with one or two other guys. We are always watching each others shots through our scopes. We are not spotting for each other, we can easily see our own impacts, we are watching and talking about the ever changing conditions together, mirage shift, dust, trees/leaves moving.......

Joined a private range yesterday thats about an hour away. It has a 600 yard line which is pretty good for my area of the country. For me to shoot that long or longer has required a three hour drive. Its going to be nice to be able to use it regularly. Was also invited to join a small group of their members who are in a steel club. I'll then have access to all their steel targets and private range events.

quote:

Originally posted by jlemmy:
New glass mounted up, off to the range in the morning

That looks very nice. Let us know how you like it.


Congrats!

RMD

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:

Conditions reading and adjusting for them is what it's all about.

I'm fortunate to have surrounded myself by some excellent LR shooters and very grateful to the individual who give their time to run steel matches. I was given sound advice at my first steel match, shoot what you got, work on fundamentals (trigger control, natural point of aim, bi-pod loading....), get rounds down range and most importantly learn to shoot in the wind.

Let me put it this way; if you have to work on trigger control, NPA, bipod loading, breathing control, heartbeat, follow through, etc, you have a long way to go. All these things just mentioned should be done subconsciously; you should not even have to think about them. Your conscious mind should be focused on targeting, adjusting for conditions and shooting on command. If you have mess around with trigger control and breathing, etc. on top of those priorities, you're losing time and points.

Here's an exercise for you; try walking while you're consciously directing your legs and feet and consciously tossing a ball from hand to hand. It's tiring and you get confused and you mess up.

The conscious mind can really only focus on one thing at a time and so you need your subconscious mind to do the mundane (trigger control, breathing, bipod, follow through, etc) for you while you deal with the conditions and then fire at the appropriate time.

The very best thing to do is to practice your position, trigger control, etc. by dry-firing. A LOT!

When I'm on the line, if I find myself worrying about any of the mundane things, I know I'm toast. On the other hand, when I'm in the zone and my total focus is on conditions; I'm unbeatable.

So, if you want to be a long range shooter; dry fire a lot and find your zone.

quote:

Originally posted by rduckwor:

quote:

Originally posted by jlemmy:
New glass mounted up, off to the range in the morning

That looks very nice. Let us know how you like it.


Congrats!

RMD

Thank you, So far I'm happy with my choice. I was torn between it and the Kahles. The second turn on the elevation of the Steiner is genius. So far the tracking has been spot on and glass is wonderful. Still in load development of the host rifle. Back to the range in the A.M. to work on the load and ring some steel.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:
Let me put it this way; if you have to work on trigger control, NPA, bipod loading, breathing control, heartbeat, follow through, etc, you have a long way to go. All these things just mentioned should be done subconsciously; you should not even have to think about them. Your conscious mind should be focused on targeting, adjusting for conditions and shooting on command. If you have mess around with trigger control and breathing, etc. on top of those priorities, you're losing time and points.

I agree that the fundamental must be second nature for us to progress to higher performance levels. In all the sports I have competed in, this is a mantra from my coaches. But none of us are perfect. We don't execute processes flawlessly over extended periods of time. We make mistakes.

Bruce Gray is likely the finest pistol shooter I've seen first hand. I saw him yank a round in a GGI class, and he stated it was due to a poor trigger press. In that same GGI course, I shot carbines with Jerry Jones for a couple of days. Jerry's a tremendous AR shooter, but I saw him yank some rounds, and he said it was due to slapping the trigger.

In last week's Rifles Only carbine/AR course, I saw two talented instructors miss a few very easy steel gongs with their pistols due to not being square to the target and "captain hooking" the trigger off to the side instead of pressing straight back. And in a dorky little head-to-head competition. These guys have taken live fire, have put people down, and continue to teach and train like there's no tomorrow. And yet in little competition on the square range, a momentary lapse occurred.

I've seen Jacob Bynum -- about as good of a trigger puller as there can be -- throw a round off to the side due to a rushed trigger press, where he broke the shot outside of his natural respiratory pause.

With proper training and constant practice we minimize the negative effects of poor fundamentals. But I doubt any human rises above basic mistakes here and there.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:
Let me put it this way; if you have to work on trigger control, NPA, bipod loading, breathing control, heartbeat, follow through, etc, you have a long way to go. All these things just mentioned should be done subconsciously; you should not even have to think about them. Your conscious mind should be focused on targeting, adjusting for conditions and shooting on command. If you have mess around with trigger control and breathing, etc. on top of those priorities, you're losing time and points.

I agree that the fundamental must be second nature for us to progress to higher performance levels. In all the sports I have competed in, this is a mantra from my coaches. But none of us are perfect. We don't execute processes flawlessly over extended periods of time. We make mistakes.

Bruce Gray is likely the finest pistol shooter I've seen first hand. I saw him yank a round in a GGI class, and he stated it was due to a poor trigger press. In that same GGI course, I shot carbines with Jerry Jones for a couple of days. Jerry's a tremendous AR shooter, but I saw him yank some rounds, and he said it was due to slapping the trigger.

In last week's Rifles Only carbine/AR course, I saw two talented instructors miss a few very easy steel gongs with their pistols due to not being square to the target and "captain hooking" the trigger off to the side instead of pressing straight back. And in a dorky little head-to-head competition. These guys have taken live fire, have put people down, and continue to teach and train like there's no tomorrow. And yet in little competition on the square range, a momentary lapse occurred.

I've seen Jacob Bynum -- about as good of a trigger puller as there can be -- throw a round off to the side due to a rushed trigger press, where he broke the shot outside of his natural respiratory pause.

With proper training and constant practice we minimize the negative effects of poor fundamentals. But I doubt any human rises above basic mistakes here and there.

I know this is apples to oranges...

But I read everything you posted, and for some strange reason: I instantly thought: "he aimed for the horns."

No matter what discipline we are talking about or why we are talking about practice.. its amazing how much the fundamentals come into play.

Hunting, self defense, long distance competition.. We can all learn so much from each other. What an amazing combination of disciplines.

A little from each, but much to learn from all.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
I agree that the fundamental must be second nature for us to progress to higher performance levels. In all the sports I have competed in, this is a mantra from my coaches. But none of us are perfect. We don't execute processes flawlessly over extended periods of time. We make mistakes.

(snip gratuitous name dropping of people who exhibit a tendency to brain farts)

With proper training and constant practice we minimize the negative effects of poor fundamentals. But I doubt any human rises above basic mistakes here and there.

I'm not 100% sure you grasped my point, especially with the bolded sentence.

What I'm trying to convey is that in order to be a top end long range shooter, you must have the correct fundamentals on auto-pilot. You do not want to think about them and second guess yourself and have a brain fart. Your conscious mind should be focused on dealing with the conditions and all that entails.

Of course people make mistakes and when that happens it's difficult to get "back in the zone," but that's what dry firing is all about. I read about people saying you should pull the trigger until you are surprised by the gun going off. How completely stupid. The rifle should fire on your command; when you commit to the shot consciously, you should not even think about the fundamentals of trigger, breath, etc.; it should be all automatic and the gun should fire right then and there.

If you have to go through steps in your mind to get to the point of shooting, your attention will be diverted from the target and the conditions for precious seconds and even if your fundamentals are perfect the aim might not be.

When I shoot team; the wind coach knows that when he or she says "fire" or "send it" to me, the shot will go within the next second, sometimes even before he or she finishes the sentence. I will then report back my exact point of aim when the gun fired. If you have to go through the fundamentals in your mind after the coach says go, it could be several seconds before the shot is taken and the conditions will be shifting. Wind coaches get miffed when people take their time.

So practice perfect fundamentals by dry firing, visualize the recoil and follow through and do it over and over again. If you make a mistake, shrug it off and continue. The worst thing you can do is dwell on that mistake.

And never be surprised by your gun going off.

You've been "in the zone," you know what I'm taking about. Everything is on autopilot, easy peasy and you can't seem to miss. I'm trying to explain to people how to get there.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
(snip gratuitous name dropping of people who exhibit a tendency to brain farts)

I'm not 100% sure you grasped my point

My point is that sometimes (but not always) as competitors we are in that zone, where fundamentals are executed flawlessly, where we can focus on the higher level tasks at hand. Those are the days state, national, and international championships are won. Personal bests are attained and world records are set.

Pick an activity, sport, event -- it doesn't have to be shooting. The best of the best of the best still make mistakes, regardless of how many times they've dry fired, practiced free throws, down shifted at the apex of a hairpin turn, punched a golf ball out of a sand trap, or carved a perfect turn on an icy downhill course.

I agree that if the fundamentals aren't down really, really well, there's no hope of performing well in shooting. IMO, the difference between those who can remain at the very top of the pyramid for extended periods is that when they pull those wonderful brain farts, they go back to the fundamentals, consciously correct the brain fart, and get back in the game.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
My point is that sometimes (but not always) as competitors we are in that zone, where fundamentals are executed flawlessly, where we can focus on the higher level tasks at hand. Those are the days state, national, and international championships are won. Personal bests are attained and world records are set.

Pick an activity, sport, event -- it doesn't have to be shooting. The best of the best of the best still make mistakes, regardless of how many times they've dry fired, practiced free throws, down shifted at the apex of a hairpin turn, punched a golf ball out of a sand trap, or carved a perfect turn on an icy downhill course.

I agree that if the fundamentals aren't down really, really well, there's no hope of performing well in shooting. IMO, the difference between those who can remain at the very top of the pyramid for extended periods is that when they pull those wonderful brain farts, they go back to the fundamentals, consciously correct the brain fart, and get back in the game.

I totally agree, no caveats, no ifs, ands or buts.

quote:

Originally posted by jlemmy:
Joined a private range yesterday thats about an hour away. It has a 600 yard line which is pretty good for my area of the country. For me to shoot that long or longer has required a three hour drive. Its going to be nice to be able to use it regularly. Was also invited to join a small group of their members who are in a steel club. I'll then have access to all their steel targets and private range events.

Cool. Hope you don't brake too many of their steel targets right away with that 300WM hammer of yours!

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:
Cool. Hope you don't brake too many of their steel targets right away with that 300WM hammer of yours!

Well, if he has a brake on his rifle, he won't break any targets.

Isn't that the purpose of a muzzle brake?

But of course that's why you brake a rifle

Thanks guy's, some good info exchanged in this thread . Started doing extensive dry fire practice a year or so and it has improved my shooting. It has without burning through my precious supply of H1000 too. Would love to shoot with some of you one of these days !

quote:

Originally posted by jlemmy:
But of course that's why you brake a rifle

Thanks guy's, some good info exchanged in this thread . Started doing extensive dry fire practice a year or so and it has improved my shooting. It has without burning through my precious supply of H1000 too. Would love to shoot with some of you one of these days !

I trust you are doing your dry firing from position and not just pressing the trigger while sitting on a couch watching TV. I aim, press the trigger and visualize the recoil and do my follow through. Just like in a match, except the ammo is stored away. On my last dry fire, I open the bolt and put in the ECI. Then I stand up and put the stuff away. Finally I remove the ECI from the chamber, close the bolt and press the trigger and store the rifle in the safe with the ECI in the case.

The week before big matches, I setup my mat and rifle, etc on the floor and I go through the motions for a few cycles. At the Nationals and Worlds last year, I was doing that in my hotel room every night after cleaning the rifle. Then I would pack everything up and be ready to go at 5:30AM the next day. I also abstained from alcohol and late night discussions until the night of the awards.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:

quote:

Originally posted by jlemmy:
But of course that's why you brake a rifle

Thanks guy's, some good info exchanged in this thread . Started doing extensive dry fire practice a year or so and it has improved my shooting. It has without burning through my precious supply of H1000 too. Would love to shoot with some of you one of these days !

I trust you are doing your dry firing from position and not just pressing the trigger while sitting on a couch watching TV. I aim, press the trigger and visualize the recoil and do my follow through. Just like in a match, except the ammo is stored away. On my last dry fire, I open the bolt and put in the ECI. Then I stand up and put the stuff away. Finally I remove the ECI from the chamber, close the bolt and press the trigger and store the rifle in the safe with the ECI in the case.

The week before big matches, I setup my mat and rifle, etc on the floor and I go through the motions for a few cycles. At the Nationals and Worlds last year, I was doing that in my hotel room every night after cleaning the rifle. Then I would pack everything up and be ready to go at 5:30AM the next day. I also abstained from alcohol and late night discussions until the night of the awards.

Speaking of prep..

I get the sense that you clean your rifle every night during a match? But you do fire foulers prior to shooting for score, so I suppose "clean/cold bore" shots aren't exactly an issue, right?

On the topic of abstinence.. Do you skip the morning coffee as well? I find it's easier to settle in behind the trigger if I've not had half a pot of coffee that morning...

quote:

Originally posted by exx1976:
Speaking of prep..

I get the sense that you clean your rifle every night during a match? But you do fire foulers prior to shooting for score, so I suppose "clean/cold bore" shots aren't exactly an issue, right?

Yes, I clean every night, provided there is a blow off period or unlimited sighters in the morning. There usually is and all I need is one or two shots from a clean barrel to get going. If there is no blow off period, I will leave the barrel alone.

quote:

On the topic of abstinence.. Do you skip the morning coffee as well? I find it's easier to settle in behind the trigger if I've not had half a pot of coffee that morning...

No, I only abstain from alcohol for the duration and try to eat lightly. I go to bed early and dream of Xs.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:

Yes, I clean every night, provided there is a blow off period or unlimited sighters in the morning. There usually is and all I need is one or two shots from a clean barrel to get going. If there is no blow off period, I will leave the barrel alone.

The new rules on the sigthers has really changed the way I clean my rifle, too.

We generally shoot Palma course - only having 2 sighters is a PITA.

Would love to go back to unlimited.

I'm not sure what you mean by "new rules." The NRA rules regarding sighters have not changed in a long time. However match directors have lots of leeway to change and adjust them for specific matches.

In big matches such as the Nationals and TSRA, the first match of the day has unlimited sighters and then 2 sighters for subsequent matches for that day.

The Worlds was shot in a Palma format (yuck) and was 2 sighters for every distance (800/900/1000). They did allow a one minute blowoff period prior to each relay's first match.

I run the monthly LR matches as pure NRA matches and thus allow unlimited sighters for each of the three matches, since they are all shot at 1000 yards. I limit myself to 5 sighters on the first match and 2 for each subsequent matches because that's what I have to do at the big matches. The five sighters would be equivalent to 3 blow off rounds followed by the two sighters. Also with components being scarce I hate just "blowing off" the ammo that I painstakingly assembled.

The match programs should detail the COF for the day and you can certainly question the MD as to his "new" sighter rule. At the very least get him to agree to a blow off period in the morning.

The blow off is a one minute period after prep time and with the targets down in the pits. The shooters can put as many rounds downrange as they want, into the berm or the impact zone, within that one minute.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:

quote:

Originally posted by jlemmy:
But of course that's why you brake a rifle

Thanks guy's, some good info exchanged in this thread . Started doing extensive dry fire practice a year or so and it has improved my shooting. It has without burning through my precious supply of H1000 too. Would love to shoot with some of you one of these days !

I trust you are doing your dry firing from position and not just pressing the trigger while sitting on a couch watching TV. I aim, press the trigger and visualize the recoil and do my follow through. Just like in a match, except the ammo is stored away. On my last dry fire, I open the bolt and put in the ECI. Then I stand up and put the stuff away. Finally I remove the ECI from the chamber, close the bolt and press the trigger and store the rifle in the safe with the ECI in the case.

The week before big matches, I setup my mat and rifle, etc on the floor and I go through the motions for a few cycles. At the Nationals and Worlds last year, I was doing that in my hotel room every night after cleaning the rifle. Then I would pack everything up and be ready to go at 5:30AM the next day. I also abstained from alcohol and late night discussions until the night of the awards.

Yes, I wasn't very clear. I get in the firing position and try to establish a natural point of aim on a distant target. I try to manipulate the trigger straight back and not side load it at all. I'll then dry fire the rifle while concentrating on the reticle. My goal is to see no movement of the reticle thru this drill. If you have any additional thoughts or tweaks , feel free to mention it. I'm always open to and suggestions that can improve my shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:
I'm not sure what you mean by "new rules." The NRA rules regarding sighters have not changed in a long time. However match directors have lots of leeway to change and adjust them for specific matches.

In big matches such as the Nationals and TSRA, the first match of the day has unlimited sighters and then 2 sighters for subsequent matches for that day.

The Worlds was shot in a Palma format (yuck) and was 2 sighters for every distance (800/900/1000). They did allow a one minute blowoff period prior to each relay's first match.

I run the monthly LR matches as pure NRA matches and thus allow unlimited sighters for each of the three matches, since they are all shot at 1000 yards. I limit myself to 5 sighters on the first match and 2 for each subsequent matches because that's what I have to do at the big matches. The five sighters would be equivalent to 3 blow off rounds followed by the two sighters. Also with components being scarce I hate just "blowing off" the ammo that I painstakingly assembled.

The match programs should detail the COF for the day and you can certainly question the MD as to his "new" sighter rule. At the very least get him to agree to a blow off period in the morning.

The blow off is a one minute period after prep time and with the targets down in the pits. The shooters can put as many rounds downrange as they want, into the berm or the impact zone, within that one minute.

New as of this year...

http://compete.nra.org/documen...rules/rul_hpr_13.pdf

My understanding of the rules is that you are allowed unlimited sighters under 17.5(d) (1000 Yard LR/wLRFC) but you are only allowed 2 sighters at any other distance..

Being that we shoot with the palma guys, it looks like we will always only have 2.. But at least we get to shoot at that big ole 1k target at a measly 900 yards.