quote:

Originally posted by jlemmy:

I get in the firing position and try to establish a natural point of aim on a distant target. I try to manipulate the trigger straight back and not side load it at all. I'll then dry fire the rifle while concentrating on the reticle. My goal is to see no movement of the reticle thru this drill. If you have any additional thoughts or tweaks , feel free to mention it. I'm always open to and suggestions that can improve my shooting.

My dry firing is about the same, adding a few things based on the steel matches I shoot, believe in practicing how I play. My steel matches are all basically the same format, one shot each target, hit or miss, next target different distance. When dry firing outside, have a few small 2" rounds and square targets nailed to trees about 20-30yds apart from 60-200yds with elevation changes. Plop down dry fire at one, open the bolt, look at/hold my dope card, pick a distance, dial elevation, move bi-pod, adjust rear bag, pivot body.... what ever it takes re-establish a natural point of aim, get on target, close bolt, dry fire.......repeat. I always hold wind/never dial it, it's very rare I hold center on a target. I always hold a wind value when dry firing. If the steel targets are scattered around at the range you joined, give what I'm doing a try.

Last winter bought one of these to practice inside, works well. Place small stickers on a wall. The IOTA also works great for leveling a scope inside.

http://forum.snipershide.com/s...al-training-aid.html

quote:

Originally posted by md-lucky:
New as of this year...

http://compete.nra.org/documen...rules/rul_hpr_13.pdf

My understanding of the rules is that you are allowed unlimited sighters under 17.5(d) (1000 Yard LR/wLRFC) but you are only allowed 2 sighters at any other distance..

Being that we shoot with the palma guys, it looks like we will always only have 2.. But at least we get to shoot at that big ole 1k target at a measly 900 yards.

Yeah, I don't know that this is a change. Like I said I shoot at 1000 exclusively and it's unlimited sighters for each match, though I only use two as a way to practice for the big matches. The other distances are not any different that I can see.

quote:

Originally posted by jlemmy:
Yes, I wasn't very clear. I get in the firing position and try to establish a natural point of aim on a distant target. I try to manipulate the trigger straight back and not side load it at all. I'll then dry fire the rifle while concentrating on the reticle. My goal is to see no movement of the reticle thru this drill. If you have any additional thoughts or tweaks , feel free to mention it. I'm always open to and suggestions that can improve my shooting.

In my opinion, worth every penny you paid for it, you need to stop focusing on the trigger actuation. This needs to be on automatic by now. You should have a method by which you build you position and set up your NPA. That should be the same every time, done the same way. I have my little ritual down and I do it the same way every time and woe to anyone who talks to me while I do that. By that time, I am concentrating on the upcoming match and no small talk for me.

Movement in the reticle? What movement? It's rock solid. A moving reticle left the scene years ago. I don't know how I do it, it just is.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:

quote:

Originally posted by jlemmy:
Yes, I wasn't very clear. I get in the firing position and try to establish a natural point of aim on a distant target. I try to manipulate the trigger straight back and not side load it at all. I'll then dry fire the rifle while concentrating on the reticle. My goal is to see no movement of the reticle thru this drill. If you have any additional thoughts or tweaks , feel free to mention it. I'm always open to and suggestions that can improve my shooting.

In my opinion, worth every penny you paid for it, you need to stop focusing on the trigger actuation. This needs to be on automatic by now. You should have a method by which you build you position and set up your NPA. That should be the same every time, done the same way. I have my little ritual down and I do it the same way every time and woe to anyone who talks to me while I do that. By that time, I am concentrating on the upcoming match and no small talk for me.

Movement in the reticle? What movement? It's rock solid. A moving reticle left the scene years ago. I don't know how I do it, it just is.

While i do agree with muscle memory and your body gets to the point that it knows what to do. Every time I throw a shot it can be traced back to blowing one of the fundamentals . More than likely I just have not attained your proficiency level as yet. I don't think it will hurt to continue dry fire drills when I have the free time.

quote:

Originally posted by jlemmy:
Every time I throw a shot it can be traced back to blowing one of the fundamentals . More than likely I just have not attained your proficiency level as yet. I don't think it will hurt to continue dry fire drills when I have the free time.

+1

I'm not there yet, either. I just completed a precision rifle course where we shot various-sized targets from 100 to 1000 yards, from multiple positions, sometimes under time pressure, and a moving target at 430 yards. This morning we went long, out to 1400 and 1780 yards. Errors in fundamentals were absolutely the primary causes of poor marksmandship. We all made errors and we had some pretty talented shooters. Even the instructors made errors here and there -- although their errors tended to be fairly small.

Someday I hope to get the fundamentals down 100%.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:
Movement in the reticle? What movement? It's rock solid. A moving reticle left the scene years ago. I don't know how I do it, it just is.

A local Palma shooter has this program.

http://www.scatt.com/

It was interesting to see how much I moved around through out the trigger pull....I thought I was rock solid.

Hook yourself up to one of these trainers, brother you have movement!

Let's all make sure we are talking about the same thing here.

When I talk about shooting at 1000 yards, it's in F-class, F-TR to be exact. This is from prone with an 18 pound .308 rifle on a bipod and topped with a 42X NF-NXS scope. I keep the scope on 42X all the time.

The slightest movement you transmit to the rifle will show up, BIG TIME in the scope as the reticle will dance around the target out of control. Years ago, I learned to control myself to the point where I can place the target dot of my NP2DD reticle exactly where I want it on the target and press the trigger without having the 1/8 MOA dot move at all. I don't really know how I do that anymore, it just happens that way. I've shot in hundreds of matches at various competitions around the country and it just evolved over time.

I try not to think of the fundamentals past my initial setup. I totally concentrate on the conditions and can fire instantly as required. When I transition from the spotting scope to the riflescope, unless I detect something in the riflescope, the shot will be gone within a few seconds and that includes closing the bolt. I only close the bolt when I'm ready to fire as I try to let the barrel cool as much as possible and also not cook my ammo.

Palma shooters and position shooters have to concentrate on many more fundamentals than F-class shooters, but that's also the reason F-class targets are a quarter the size of the Palma targets.

Also, I would think that shooting to 1400 or 1780 yards, would expose the bullet to far more conditions than just the measly 1000 yards, to the point that I would most assuredly blame an unseen condition change (or maybe not compensating enough or too much) way before I would blame an error in my fundamentals. I don't want to sound snooty but if you cannot master the fundamentals for every shot, you are just wasting ammo at long range. The conditions are what you need to monitor and address, not try to remember to not touch wood while pressing the trigger.

In F-class, if you do not have the fundamentals it will show up on the target really quickly; you won't be able to control the waterline. At 1000 yards, a competent trigger puller with a great rifle and superb ammo needs to hold it at one MOA. If you have a shot go higher or lower, there may have been an unseen condition, usually a mirage thing.

If you can't hold the waterline to 1 MOA, you need to check your ammo and your fundamentals. There's nothing worse than finally getting a good wind call and shooting high or low. Also, the rings are round, not square and that will hurt you.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:
Also, I would think that shooting to 1400 or 1780 yards, would expose the bullet to far more conditions than just the measly 1000 yards, to the point that I would most assuredly blame an unseen condition change (or maybe not compensating enough or too much) way before I would blame an error in my fundamentals. I don't want to sound snooty but if you cannot master the fundamentals for every shot, you are just wasting ammo at long range. The conditions are what you need to monitor and address, not try to remember to not touch wood while pressing the trigger.

It was definitely a challenge going at the mile. We were on an 20' elevated wooden platform, shooting factory Hornady 285 BTHP ammo with a suppressed Accuracy International AX, Atlas bipod, rear squeeze bean bag. Our instructor (Jacob Bynum of Rifles Only) burned 10 rounds without a hit. In the spotting scope I saw minor trace twice, one low dirt hit, and one possible hit in thick weeds. Not seeing that (normally) mongo trace of the .338LM bullet was probably our biggest challenge in calling shots.

I was next behind the gun, and not overly confident about it. My first four rounds produced no hits and no calls. Shot number five finally produced dirt splash off the right of the 3.5' wide by 4.5' tall plate. At last we had elevation and an idea on wind. Shot #6 produced another dirt impact. Shots seven and eight produced hits in the left center of the plate. Shots nine and ten both hit the 18" orange aiming bull. Woohoo, I pass the gun off to the next student.

We drove down to repaint the steel, and to pull weeds on the dirt berm behind the target. My four hits had lateral dispersion of about 15-16 inches, with vertical dispersion of maybe 8-9 inches. We were lucky that the right to left breeze was minimal, that it's velocity didn't change all that much, and that the boil/mirage was pretty easy to see.

FWIW, I figure I broke all but one shot really well, as the gun's sights stayed on target -- almost no bipod hop and I was able to spot my hits (barely) on target.

Been out of circulation the past 6-8 weeks due to a family heath issue. All squared away and back catching up on some threads...this one included. Have a nice stretch of time off the first 3 weeks of July. Hoping to get out and pick up generally where things were left off...

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
[It was definitely a challenge going at the mile. We were on an 20' elevated wooden platform, shooting factory Hornady 285 BTHP ammo with a suppressed Accuracy International AX, Atlas bipod, rear squeeze bean bag. Our instructor (Jacob Bynum of Rifles Only) burned 10 rounds without a hit. In the spotting scope I saw minor trace twice, one low dirt hit, and one possible hit in thick weeds. Not seeing that (normally) mongo trace of the .338LM bullet was probably our biggest challenge in calling shots.

I was next behind the gun, and not overly confident about it. My first four rounds produced no hits and no calls. Shot number five finally produced dirt splash off the right of the 3.5' wide by 4.5' tall plate. At last we had elevation and an idea on wind. Shot #6 produced another dirt impact. Shots seven and eight produced hits in the left center of the plate. Shots nine and ten both hit the 18" orange aiming bull. Woohoo, I pass the gun off to the next student.

We drove down to repaint the steel, and to pull weeds on the dirt berm behind the target. My four hits had lateral dispersion of about 15-16 inches, with vertical dispersion of maybe 8-9 inches. We were lucky that the right to left breeze was minimal, that it's velocity didn't change all that much, and that the boil/mirage was pretty easy to see.

FWIW, I figure I broke all but one shot really well, as the gun's sights stayed on target -- almost no bipod hop and I was able to spot my hits (barely) on target.

Great story to read. Almost like being there.

In early 2013, I was doing quite well at a match and with the Nationals/Worlds coming up and having introduced an annealing machine in my loading regimen, I wanted to get a feel for my waterline. After my last relay, I asked the MD for permission to shoot my dozen or so remaining rounds in my box on the target and not have the pit crew score the hits; just leave the target up.

The MD relayed my request, and the pits acknowledged. They pasted my last for-score hit and ran the target back up and left it there.

I then fired my dozen rounds while aiming dead on the X that I could see in my 42X scope. I made no allowance for wind, just used the same aiming point for all the shots. I fired as fast as I could remove the fired case from the bolt, put it in the box, load the next round, aim at the same spot and fire. When I was finished, I informed the MD and asked him to tell the pits to remove the target and without disturbing anything, just bring it back to the line.

When I got the target, it was fun to see the effect of the (uncompensated) wind on the target; the horizontal spread was over 3 feet wide. The vertical spread on the other hand was under 5 inches for all but 3 shots and all the shots were under 9 inches.

I decided to refine my powder loading to attempt to reduce the waterline further. The 3 shots that increased the size of the waterline could not be explained by conditions or shooting errors as I had detected neither one during the 12 shot string. By process of elimination, that meant only the ammo could be at fault. So, I bought a second scale to supplement, complement and refine the loads from the Chargemaster, and I now load my powder to the kernel. This change came just in time for the Nationals and I attribute my improved performance there to my upgraded ammo loading.

Now, one would believe that I can hold at .5MOA waterline all the time. Sadly this is not the case. I have been known to fire 6 or 7 Xs in a row, meaning that I was holding at under a half MOA at 1000 yards, but that is rare and when it does occur, it's short-lived. Nobody holds a half MOA or even one MOA at 1000 yards all the time. If they did you would see cleans all the time. Those are rare in F-Open and extremely rare in F-TR (only been 4-5 recorded in 7 years of NRA sanctioned F-class matches around the country.)

Recently, I was having a discussion with some of the members of the US National F-Open team with their 22lb 7mm rifles about waterline and it is pretty much accepted that consistent, meaning day in and day out, in competition setting, one MOA of vertical is pretty much all that can be expected at the top end. It's also what you need to be able to hold, again, day in an day out for all matches if you want to be competitive. This means that when conditions are good and you're in the zone, you must put a bunch downrange much under MOA of waterline and coupled with good wind calls, that's how you win.

I have never seen anyone shooting factory ammo even approach 1 MOA waterline at 1000 yards in F-TR (.308). We are talking 60 rounds for record in a match.

I can hold under MOA, but when conditions are bad, stuff happens. That's part of the day in, day out consistency thing I was talking about, so in reality, I'm closer to just around or over an MOA. At the state match in March, the wind was nasty and switching around. I started my second string with an X and then my second shot for record was an 8 at 2 o'clock; high and right. Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot. I could not detect a marksmanship or condition issue that would have caused that. I thought to myself; it's going to be a long painful string. Then I decided to just brush it off and carry on. So I took my next shot at the same place I had aimed for the prior shot and got an X. I didn't think of anything about fundamentals, I knew my ammo was the best, I devoted all my attention to the conditions, glued to the spotting scope and the rifle scope. Nothing else mattered. I ended dropping only 3 more points in the next 17 rounds and ended up with a 195-6, one of my highest scores at 1000 yards, and in nasty conditions. My scorer was just shocked and happy for me; he couldn't believe it either.

If I had tried to second guess myself or "review my fundamentals" I would have scored a lot worse and would probably have lost the championship. As it was, I had confidence in myself and my equipment and did what I had to do which is to watch the conditions and deal with them; everything else was on automatic.

Nikon,

Very interesting read, thanks for posting. You have triggered a question on a refinement step that I've been considering myself. I also use a Chargemaster to throw every charge. Just going by published tolerance there could be almost .2 grain inconsistency in charges. I have been debating adding a second scale with a higher resolution to fine tune and get my charge weights identical. What scale are you using to perform this step ? GemPro ? Your thoughts as always are appreciated !

I describe all that in the pinned thread in the incorrectly named "Reloading" section. The thread is "Handloading for Precision/competition."

And yes, the GemPro 250 is what I use.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:
I describe all that in the pinned thread in the incorrectly named "Reloading" section. The thread is "Handloading for Precision/competition."

And yes, the GemPro 250 is what I use.

This. Exactly this. And I've found my CM to vary by much more than the theoretical maximum of .2 grains..

Now, as others have made note - I can't really say that the GemPro is any more ACCURATE, per se, but it is a much finer resolution. It makes me warm and fuzzy, and doesn't take too much extra time.

Thanks for the reference to the reloading section. It's a good read and I see I'm not alone in second guessing the Chargemaster. I took the rifle out this morning and shot a 10 round string over the Magneto Speed. Had an ES of 51 that I need to get to the bottom of. Going to order the GemPro and give it a try. May also switch to standard rifle primers.

quote:

Originally posted by jlemmy:
Thanks for the reference to the reloading section. It's a good read and I see I'm not alone in second guessing the Chargemaster. I took the rifle out this morning and shot a 10 round string over the Magneto Speed. Had an ES of 51 that I need to get to the bottom of. Going to order the GemPro and give it a try. May also switch to standard rifle primers.

You have now embarked on a long voyage to the dark side.

People are quick to blame themselves for bad performance on the target, and that's most usually the case. If you limit yourself to factory ammo, regular handloads or (shudder) surplus ammo, you will never be able to know if the bad performance is due to ammo or your marksmanship. I don't think we want to swerve this thread into a handloading review, there is a thread in the "reloading" (still misnamed,) section, but it is important to understand that with factory ammo, however "premium" it is, your performance is limited by that ammo, not by your rifle or your marksmanship. This is especially so at long range. There is a reason why no competitive shooter in F-class (and many other disciplines) uses factory ammo.

Agreed, don't want to sidetrack this discussion. However I don't think you can have a serious talk on long range shooting without delving into hand loading. I'm just anxious now to strip my remaining rounds, re-prime and weigh charges when I get the new scale. Then see if I've conquered my ES issue. I haven't shot factory ammo in ages and thought I was making top notch loads. Live and learn

quote:

May also switch to standard rifle primers.

Rem standard LR primers may well be your friend.



Small sample and I need to repeat it with a larger sample, but I like this so far.

RMD

Interesting test, was using CCI LR Mag primers and only have Winchester LR standards on the shelf. Large rifle primers are still pretty scarce around here. I'm going to give the Winchester's a try. Too bad they didn't make your test

Got back on the horse yesterday. Haven't shot a rifle in about three weeks. I'm 13 days out from having my knee scoped. Will shoot a couple of these dot drills with the 22lr every day until I start shooting my comp rifle again. Easily shoot 600+ rds of 22 in the next couple weeks, see if I can clean a few. Plan on shooting a field steel match the weekend of 7/12. The match is where this year Snipe Hide Cup was held. The owner of the range bought the mover target/system that was set up for the Cup, will be part of the monthly match now. Haven't shot at a mover before, looking forward to it!

The upper target I shot 1st, shows I'm a little rusty. A couple recent post discussed reticle movement, I was moving around quite a bit on that 1st target. 1/4 dot target, 50yds, 25X magnification really shows any movement.

While I a firm believer in dry firing, a precision 22 takes that to the next level, getting rounds down range and no reloading!

Beware of training with a different rifle from what you shoot in a match. Something about practicing as you shoot.

When I moved from my AR to my bolt F-TR rifle, I went from a 2 stage trigger set to about 3lbs to a single stage trigger set at 1.5 ounce. After a few years of shooting my bolt exclusively in matches, I shot a match with my AR. The first time I pulled the trigger, I thought I had left the safety on; the trigger would not trip.

The safety was not, it was just a very different trigger. That tripped me up for a while as I now had to remember to pull through the first stage and break on the second stage. Old guys like me have a time changing things.