quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:
Brett B,

the inside diameter of my scope measures 57MM +/-. From that, would also guess the 52MM will work for your scope. Probably best to bring your scope into a local camera shop to check.

Congrats on getting the NF, great scopes.

Thanks offgrid. I ordered the 52mm from Amazon and will see how it fits.

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:

quote:

Originally posted by jlemmy:
I feel like a kid on Christmas. Just opened up boxes containing my new Steiner Military 5-25 x 56,Sunshade,Spuhr mount and AAD caps. Sucks cause I have to go to work and can't mount up and play

Congrats! Which reticle?

MSR

Sort of LR related, but BIG news for we Central Montanans shooters for sure.

The Gt Falls Range is doing the dirt work to get the 1K range done hopefully within this month!!

We have had a fairly dry April and May with no end in sight. If we can keep the June rains at bay for a few weeks we may be up and shooting within a few months!

FN in MT

New glass mounted up, off to the range in the morning

Finally got the time to do some load development with the new 185 Hybrids.

Loads are above each target. Started at 42.8g Varget, Lapua brass, CCI B2 Primers.

I am able to load them LONG with my chamber. I certainly wouldn't use my numbers as a basis for any load development in a different rifle.

I'm jumping them 20 thousandths.

I was having fits with my chrono today. Here are the ones I captured:

42.8: 2640, 2585
43: 2628
43.2: 2631, 2596
43.4: 2614, 2675, 2702
43.8: 2706, 2668
44: 2712, 2702
44.2: 2696, 2730, 2676
44.4: 2767, 2780
44.6: 2881, 2832

44.4 had flat primers.
44.6 had flat primers and big smiley face from the ejector. It's over pressured.

Things start to get pretty around 43.4, and get really good at 43.8-44.

I'm thinking of loading at 44. It had the nice clover pattern.

I'm rolling around the idea in my head of going around 43.9. If 43.8 and 44 are that good, it might give me a little leeway. Thoughts?





43.6 - .514 MOA


43.8 - .301 MOA


44 - .346 MOA


Anyone see anything I'm missing?

Those are looking really good!

RMD

I use 185 hybrids as well. My load is 43.5 varget, and I load LONG as well. I did load Dev up to 44.5, and didn't find anything better. I think there was a little more room yet to keep going in my rifle, but I was already so far over published max I lost my nerve. Lol

In my 20" barrel, 43.5 gets me 2495.

Sent about 100 of them downrange today. 600 yards, 5-7mph swirling winds, gusting to 15mph. It was a bit challenging, but I'm learning a bunch about wind reading and holdover. Loving every minute of it. Probably won't be able to get back out there again until next sunday.

I don't know which "published max" you have, but I would throw away the book in which it was published.

Also, you seem to misunderstand the concept of load development for long range. You said that you had loaded up to 44.5 gr of Varget and had not "find anything better." You didn't say what that parameter was, so I will just assume that you mean precision. In LR load development, we look for the highest possible velocity that will yield the best precision. So, when you find an "accuracy node" that allows you to load 44.5gr without degradation of accuracy, that's what you want to use. Higher velocity will always be better than lower velocity given the same precision. Higher velocity partially makes up for your poor judgment of the conditions.

And tell me again about holdover? What is that?

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:
I don't know which "published max" you have, but I would throw away the book in which it was published.

Also, you seem to misunderstand the concept of load development for long range. You said that you had loaded up to 44.5 gr of Varget and had not "find anything better." You didn't say what that parameter was, so I will just assume that you mean precision. In LR load development, we look for the highest possible velocity that will yield the best precision. So, when you find an "accuracy node" that allows you to load 44.5gr without degradation of accuracy, that's what you want to use. Higher velocity will always be better than lower velocity given the same precision. Higher velocity partially makes up for your poor judgment of the conditions.

And tell me again about holdover? What is that?

Apologies for lack of clarity.

43.5 got me the tightest group. 44.5 was not the prettiest. That load development was done at 300 yard last summer.

If I'm doing something wrong, and I could get a faster loading, I'm all for it, and I welcome your input and insight on the topic.

I was referring to holding for wind. I actually think I link shooting when it's windy more than I do when it's not. I don't compete (as you know), so some added challenge trying to hit a hunk of steel is welcome once in a while.

And thanks for your opinion, but I don't think I'll be evicting my Berger book from my shelf just yet.

quote:

Originally posted by exx1976:
Apologies for lack of clarity.

43.5 got me the tightest group. 44.5 was not the prettiest. That load development was done at 300 yard last summer.

If I'm doing something wrong, and I could get a faster loading, I'm all for it, and I welcome your input and insight on the topic.

I was referring to holding for wind. I actually think I link shooting when it's windy more than I do when it's not. I don't compete (as you know), so some added challenge trying to hit a hunk of steel is welcome once in a while.

And thanks for your opinion, but I don't think I'll be evicting my Berger book from my shelf just yet.

Actually the Berger book is arguably the first one I would get rid of. Getting loads from a bullet manufacturer is inefficient. You need to get loads from the powder manufacturer.

I emailed Mr. Berger a few years back about a load with one of their bullets and he emailed back something that was way below Hodgdon's loads for that bullet. I emailed back asking him why his was so low and he said he had to do it that way for legal purposes. I do not blame him for that, but that was an eye-opening moment for me and I never bothered with bullet manufacturers loads after that. I figure the powder manufacturer is the one who knows their product best. The only exception to this is when dealing with Barnes bullets.

Now, in your case, if 43.5 works better then by all means, go with that, the difference in velocity between 43.5 and 44.5 is not worth the degraded precision. In a 20 inch barrel the "accuracy nodes" are going to be smaller than in a long barrel, so you get what you get.

Holdover is when you hold above the target to make up for lack of elevation adjustment.

Hold offs is what you use to compensate for wind instead of adjusting the sights for windage.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:

quote:

Originally posted by exx1976:
Apologies for lack of clarity.

43.5 got me the tightest group. 44.5 was not the prettiest. That load development was done at 300 yard last summer.

If I'm doing something wrong, and I could get a faster loading, I'm all for it, and I welcome your input and insight on the topic.

I was referring to holding for wind. I actually think I link shooting when it's windy more than I do when it's not. I don't compete (as you know), so some added challenge trying to hit a hunk of steel is welcome once in a while.

And thanks for your opinion, but I don't think I'll be evicting my Berger book from my shelf just yet.

Actually the Berger book is arguably the first one I would get rid of. Getting loads from a bullet manufacturer is inefficient. You need to get loads from the powder manufacturer.

I emailed Mr. Berger a few years back about a load with one of their bullets and he emailed back something that was way below Hodgdon's loads for that bullet. I emailed back asking him why his was so low and he said he had to do it that way for legal purposes. I do not blame him for that, but that was an eye-opening moment for me and I never bothered with bullet manufacturers loads after that. I figure the powder manufacturer is the one who knows their product best. The only exception to this is when dealing with Barnes bullets.

Now, in your case, if 43.5 works better then by all means, go with that, the difference in velocity between 43.5 and 44.5 is not worth the degraded precision. In a 20 inch barrel the "accuracy nodes" are going to be smaller than in a long barrel, so you get what you get.

Holdover is when you hold above the target to make up for lack of elevation adjustment.

Hold offs is what you use to compensate for wind instead of adjusting the sights for windage.

Thank you for the correction to my terminology, I will be certain to use it correctly going forward. I hate sounding ignorant!

I guess I was doing a bit of holdover as well though, since there was a swirling wind, and at times it was in our face. Rather than dial for it, I would hold a bit over the top of the plate. Seemed to make much more sense to me than dialing for a gust that may be gone by the time I finished dialing. LOL

That is both eye-opening, and sad, at the same time. Brian Litz is a genius, and it disappoints me that the loads given for his bullet designs would be less than ideal.

quote:

Originally posted by exx1976:
Sent about 100 of them downrange today. 600 yards, 5-7mph swirling winds, gusting to 15mph. It was a bit challenging, but I'm learning a bunch about wind reading and holdover. Loving every minute of it. Probably won't be able to get back out there again until next sunday.

Reading wind, welcome to the world of LR shooting!

Around here we use the term Wind Hold. I NEVER dial wind shooting at steel in a match or practicing.

quote:

Originally posted by exx1976:
Thank you for the correction to my terminology, I will be certain to use it correctly going forward. I hate sounding ignorant!

Always happy to oblige. If no one tells you, how would you learn?

quote:

I guess I was doing a bit of holdover as well though, since there was a swirling wind, and at times it was in our face. Rather than dial for it, I would hold a bit over the top of the plate. Seemed to make much more sense to me than dialing for a gust that may be gone by the time I finished dialing. LOL

If the wind was in your face you might want to favor up a little but when you think about it, a 15MPH wind is statistically insignificant when talking about 2500FPS muzzle velocities. Most match shooters will simply consider a front or rear wind to have no value. I'm more concerned with whatever effect the wind may have coming off terrain features.

quote:

That is both eye-opening, and sad, at the same time. Brian Litz is a genius, and it disappoints me that the loads given for his bullet designs would be less than ideal.

My email conversation was with Walt Berger and that was before Bryan (notice the spelling) moved from Sierra to Berger. I have his books and have read them completely. I've met him at various matches and he's a nice guy. (Don't worry, he would not remember me.)

That said, load development for pure precision is accomplished in your rifle, not someone else's. But there are some absolutes in this world and maximum load is important to me. In fact, it's the only thing that's important to me as data for my load development. I design my own load according to my requirements, without exceeding that max load and to me the only reliable max load is from the powder manufacturer. I never use someone else's "accurate load".

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:
Reading wind, welcome to the world of LR shooting!

Around here we use the term Wind Hold. I NEVER dial wind shooting at steel in a match or practicing.

You get wind at 10,000 feet elevation?

In F-class matches, we always talk about "holding" or "holding off," as in "I was holding 2 rings right" or "holding off 2 rings right," or sometimes "I was holding (off) 2 MOAs." Or sometimes it's "I had 2 MOAs on the gun and I was holding off another MOA."

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:

quote:

Originally posted by exx1976:
Thank you for the correction to my terminology, I will be certain to use it correctly going forward. I hate sounding ignorant!

Always happy to oblige. If no one tells you, how would you learn?

quote:

I guess I was doing a bit of holdover as well though, since there was a swirling wind, and at times it was in our face. Rather than dial for it, I would hold a bit over the top of the plate. Seemed to make much more sense to me than dialing for a gust that may be gone by the time I finished dialing. LOL

If the wind was in your face you might want to favor up a little but when you think about it, a 15MPH wind is statistically insignificant when talking about 2500FPS muzzle velocities. Most match shooters will simply consider a front or rear wind to have no value. I'm more concerned with whatever effect the wind may have coming off terrain features.

quote:

That is both eye-opening, and sad, at the same time. Brian Litz is a genius, and it disappoints me that the loads given for his bullet designs would be less than ideal.

My email conversation was with Walt Berger and that was before Bryan (notice the spelling) moved from Sierra to Berger. I have his books and have read them completely. I've met him at various matches and he's a nice guy. (Don't worry, he would not remember me.)

That said, load development for pure precision is accomplished in your rifle, not someone else's. But there are some absolutes in this world and maximum load is important to me. In fact, it's the only thing that's important to me as data for my load development. I design my own load according to my requirements, without exceeding that max load and to me the only reliable max load is from the powder manufacturer. I never use someone else's "accurate load".

Spelling of Bryan duly noted.

As for holdover, that was more with my 223; you're right, the headwind didn't affect the 308 too much at all. Also - I paid closer attention to it this time, given your remark in the other thread about my proficiency (or lack thereof) at 600 with it. The best I was able to accomplish was 14/28 yesterday on the 8" plate at 600 with my AR. I suspect that may improve some once I replace the A2 stock and get something with a proper cheekweld (you were part of that thread, too - I've decided on the Magpul, BTW), and also with time/practice. The rifle certainly has no problem doing it, it's more an issue of tightening the nut behind the trigger.


Question though - I've not yet shot groups at 600, only steel. My current thought process is that until I can ring the 8" steel 10/10 times, consistently, shooting for groups won't be very good. Is this a sound methodology? So far the best I've been able to manage is 7 in a row before I yank one or misread the wind.

To be honest, I don't shoot for groups, I shoot for score.

You see, the issue comes in when the distance increases and the time between shots stretches out.

The benchrest dudes will machinegun 5 rounds downrange when they like the conditions and they can do that very fast.

The highpower guys get their targets scored after every shot and depending on the puller and sometimes even the scorer, that can take 10 seconds or worse. There is also the rebuilding of position if you're shooting with a sling and coat. (This ignores the rapids in across the course competitions.)

This situation gets worse when you are shooting two or even three to a mound. At that time, you have to wait until the other bozo (or two) fires his or her round and then you have 45 seconds in which to fire yours.

So, group size does not enter here and I don't know of any highpower competitor who worries about group size past 100 or 200 yards; it's all about score.

Many are the times when, for example, I would be holding off a couple of lines on the right and I score an X then the wind changes substantially and my hold does also and I still score an X. Does that mean I get small groups? Not at all, it means I get a good score because I'm following the wind.

Shooting groups is meaningless if you have to change the hold from shot to shot because it becomes a measure of the shooter much more than the rifle. This is why hitting steel is really a game of how many times you can hit it because you do change your hold from shot to shot.

I now you understand why I laugh when people say they can shoot sub-MOA at all 1000 yards, or have rifles that do that all day, as long as they do their part.

If I were you I would not worry about shooting groups at 600 yards as it will prove nothing. Shooting steel is good practice.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:
You get wind at 10,000 feet elevation?

Is there sand in the Sahara?
Is there water in the Pacific?

Calm days at altitude in the mountains are blessings. Anyone who thinks Chicago truly is the "windy city" needs to spend some quality time outdoors at elevation in the Rocky Mountains.

But I will admit that the winds in south Texas has made shooting in Kingsville a challenge, too.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:
You get wind at 10,000 feet elevation?

Is there sand in the Sahara?
Is there water in the Pacific?

Calm days at altitude in the mountains are blessings. Anyone who thinks Chicago truly is the "windy city" needs to spend some quality time outdoors at elevation in the Rocky Mountains.

I need to make greater use of emoticons.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:
I need to make greater use of emoticons.

I got it. Just jerkin' yer chain a bit. There must be somewhere in this world that has consistently calm air, but I haven't experienced it yet.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:
I need to make greater use of emoticons.

I got it. Just jerkin' yer chain a bit. There must be somewhere in this world that has consistently calm air, but I haven't experienced it yet.

One of the hilarious things that one hears at F-class matches is "do you have a no-wind zero at 1000 yards."

Conditions are virtually always in play at long range and the longer the range the worse it gets. As you well know.

I constantly get asked by friends and neighbors what the most difficult thing is shooting at 1000 yards. They keep thinking it's trigger control or controlling breathing or other such things that I totally ignore. They get those things from reading books and watching movies. One of the worst offenders is Stephen Hunter and his depictions of Bob Lee Swaggard shooting at long distances. He is so wrong it's laughable and his latest book is just a joke when it comes to describing long range shooting.

Trigger control and breathing control are on automatic. I can teach a monkey to press the trigger properly and if you have to even think about controlling your breathing, you haven't shot enough.

Conditions reading and adjusting for them is what it's all about.