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With the official targets done, it was time to mess around.

First was "gansta style". At 25 feet, 10 rounds, pistol canted 90 degrees to the left, held over head, throwing rounds at the target while pulling the trigger, left hand grabbing the family jewels. Shocker -- accuracy sucked. I hit the target only once in 10 shots, and that was below the scoring circles.

OK, modified "homie style". At 50 feet, 10 rounds, pistol canted 90 degrees to the left, using the sights (at 9 o'clock) to aim at the target, left hand grabbing the family jewels. I slowed the fire to about 6-7 seconds between rounds. Yo, homies, Ima down wit 79 dis way.

 
Posts: 7279 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Then I tried to do better than the official first time through. Practice helped the faster paced targets. Unfortunately I just couldn't repeat the 1-shot-per-minute pace of the slow fire. About half way through I got bored with the waiting -- and the results showed....

Not to be counted in this week's go, but I'm OK with improved results on the faster-paced targets.
79 slow + 84 timed + 86 rapid = 249 total

 
Posts: 7279 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Nice shooting Fritz! I'm a little intrigued that the junk-grabbing "modified homie" stance yielded an equal score to the official rapid-fire target...maybe I need to give that a try!
 
Posts: 5810 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Unfortunately I just couldn't repeat the 1-shot-per-minute pace of the slow fire. About half way through I got bored with the waiting -- and the results showed....



Nice targets, fritz ... but ...


"Unfortunately I just couldn't repeat the 1-shot-per-minute pace of the slow fire. About half way through I got bored with the waiting -- and the results showed...."

Slow fire is a maximum of ten minutes. You can shoot 10 shots as fast as you wish within ten minutes.


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Posts: 13798 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by RichardC:
Slow fire is a maximum of ten minutes. You can shoot 10 shots as fast as you wish within ten minutes.

I get that. When I shot pistols indoors with guys who specialized at bullseye, they gave me tips that improved my results. In my experience, many people shoot higher scores when they:
- Take the full 10 minutes for the string, with each shot taking about a minute.
- Rest between shots. Set the pistol down, relax your arms, relax your eyes. At my ranch I had a big fallen tree behind my shooting position, so I sat down for maybe 30 seconds between shots.
- Hold the pistol upright for the absolute minimum amount of time, which reduces arm strain.
- If the pistol sights don't come up to the target immediately, don't try to force the sights onto the target by wobbling around the bullseye. Lower your arm and try again.
- Break the shot quickly and positively while the sights are on target. Then go back to resting.

Honestly, I grew restless doing this the second time around. I had work to do, trees to cut up.
 
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Originally posted by 92fstech:
Nice shooting Fritz! I'm a little intrigued that the junk-grabbing "modified homie" stance yielded an equal score to the official rapid-fire target...maybe I need to give that a try!

At one pistol & carbine course via Rifles Only, our instructor was a SWAT team leader from Ohio. He was among the best all around shooters I've seen. And has sent a few bad guys to early dirt naps.

He used a Glock 19 at the course; I used a Glock 17. The instructor tried to dispel incorrect and webz thinking of what one can do with a duty-type pistol. Most of us shoot pistols with them upright -- sights at 12 o'clock. He showed us that at relatively close distances, the angle at which the pistol is held doesn't seriously affect accuracy. We shot with pistols canted left to 9 o'clock and canted right to 3 o'clock. Once we got better at the "homie style" shooting, he raised the stakes....but wait, there's more.

He held his G19 upside down, one handed, pulled the trigger with his pinky finger. And hit targets. We weren't allowed to do this in the course, however. The downside to a G19 being shot upside down in this manner is that it sometimes produces a stovepipe jam. Possibly from what essentially is a limp-wrist hold.
*****

I shot homie style at a slower pace than the other targets -- roughly 6 to 7 seconds per round, versus 4 seconds on timed and 2 seconds on rapid. My sight picture on the bullseye was only slightly different for the 9 o'clock hold than for the 12 o'clock hold. But it takes me a little longer to line up the sights with a canted pistol.

FWIW a few years ago, offgrid and I futzed around with pistols on steel plates after a rifle match at the Fort Carson range in southern Colorado. We played various games, including one shot at plates, hit to move on to the next farther distance. I shot one course of fire homie with crotch grab. Didn't win that one, but came pretty close.
 
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Oh, I misunderstood.


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Posts: 13798 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Our local SO guys actually started teaching something similar for one-handed shooting a few years back. Not quite the full 90 degrees, but a natural cant of about 30-45 degrees, with the thumb oriented upward beside the slide. Instead of the "homie" nut grab, you locked your opposite hand into the shoulder of your shooting arm. I ought to try the ballsack grab next time I shoot with those guys, though, and see how they react Big Grin.

It works reasonably well, but now that we're transitioning to red dots I find that I have an easier time acquiring the dot one handed if the pistol is oriented vertically, both initially and under recoil.
 
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Sorry guys, I've been working on the in-laws' house this week between training for work and a bunch of other stuff and let the dates get away from me. Congrats Fritz, looks like you won this one! Great shooting! Whatcha got for the next round?
 
Posts: 5810 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Variations on a prior theme. Centerfire carbine -- likely options include PCC and AR15. Any sights or caliber.

The target is home made. You need a piece of legal paper as the backer and a couple of 2" by 4" cards for targets. Separate the 2x4 targets by about 4" inches, kinda like this:

I didn't have a 8.5" by 14" colored piece of paper handy at the time, so that's why two 8.5" by 11" pages are paper clipped together. This isn't meant to be a target measured to the micro millimeter. Just get something close.

Start from high ready, as offgrid pictured near the bottom of page 14 in this thread.

If you have a shot timer, use it for the start.

If your range allows two fairly rapid shots:
- Shoot the right 2x4 card first, then transition as quickly as possible to the left 2x4 card.
- Shoot the left 2x4 card.

If your range doesn't allow two fairly rapid shots:
- Shoot the right 2x4 card first.
- Go back to high ready.
- On the go beep, raise the gun up to the right target -- but don't shoot it. Then move to the left target, and shoot it.
Trying to mimic the lateral transition movement from one target to the next, after shooting the first target.

Shoot a pair of rounds from each distance:
5 yards
7 yards
10 yards
12 yards
10 yards
7 yards
5 yards

So that's 7 rounds at each 2x4 card, 14 rounds total. Primary score is based on the number of hits out of the 14 shots, but with a maximum of 7 per each card. For a tie breaker, we use the average time of all 7 first-round shots. Meaning the time interval between "beep" and "bang".

But wait....there's more...
Since we haven't done this before, we get more than one try. Count the best score of your first 3 attempts. Or just shoot it 2 times. Or only 1 time, if you wish.

For a scoring example -- A score of 13/14 with a first round average time of 1.42 seconds beats a score of 12/14 with a first round average time of 1.16 seconds. Gentlemen, start your carbines.

If you prefer to shoot the left 2x4 card first, then transition to the right 2x4 card for the second shot --- that's OK, too.
 
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Five to 12 yards....hmmmm ... inherent accuracy is of lesser value but minimal sight-over-bore offset definitely is ...

hmmm...


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Posts: 13798 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yeah, the timing of this one is perfect. I'm gonna put my Mini through this alongside my AR, and hopefully that helps demonstrate if it's really good for anything at all...
 
Posts: 5810 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Well, I went out and shot it today. I'll detail the results with the Mini vs the AR-15 in the other thread, but long story short, when comparing iron sights to iron sights, there was very little differernce. The first round I dumped two with the AR due to the sight offset, but once I got my hold settled in, it ceased to be a significant factor.

For the actual match target, I used the red dot with the AR, just to see what difference it made. The difference was substantial. It was much faster both in initial acquisition and transition, and I felt far more confident that I was making hits (which I was was).

I didn't have any legal paper, so I stapled the 2x4 target squares to a cardboard rectangle, and re-used the cardboard for the whole session. Marked holes off-target are from previous runs.

I started with the right target and transitioned from right to left. Final score: 14/14, average times Right: 1.27 Seconds, Left: 2.04 Seconds



And the test subjects:



Also, the stupid string on my earplugs got pulled out at one point by getting caught between my shoulder and the stock. I'm having a bit of trouble hearing out of the left ear at the moment. I'm gonna have to cut that dumb thing off.
 
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Posts: 13798 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Nice shooting.
I suspected your Mini-14 would do fine in this instance, as the target distances are relatively close. Not surprising that the red dot times were faster than those with iron sights.

The way I figured this match was for the shooter to get a 14/14 score on the first go. Then try to push the times lower with the 2nd or 3rd try, and still keep 14/14 accuracy.

In a 2-rifle match I've done, we have reduced-size IPSC targets with an A-zone of about 1.75" wide by 3.5" tall. Similar distances to targets, but the targets are not set so close side-by-side. With common AR15 sights, most shooters tend to keep their normal 50 or 100 yard zero, then just hold the top edge of the target.

I hope to try the match this weekend. I've only used 3x5 cards so far in similar drills. Offgrid suggested trying 2x4 cards. I didn't use the 20 and 25 yard distances like we did back in January, as I didn't expect that I could hit the smaller 2x4 cards at those distances.
 
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The way I figured this match was for the shooter to get a 14/14 score on the first go. Then try to push the times lower with the 2nd or 3rd try, and still keep 14/14 accuracy.



Yeah, that's kinda how it played out. But the red dot was last and made for an even more significant improvement over the incremental steps in practice with the iron sight guns.

quote:
With common AR15 sights, most shooters tend to keep their normal 50 or 100 yard zero, then just hold the top edge of the target.


Also the case here. Both rifles are zeroed at 50 yards. Well, the AR is zeroed...the Mini is more "patterned." It's borderline acceptable at 50, but seems to get exponentially worse at 100.

I just held at the top edge of the target with the AR, and dead center with the Mini. Sight offset seemed to be more of a factor at these distances than the zero.

quote:
I didn't expect that I could hit the smaller 2x4 cards at those distances.


There's no doubt it would have been tough. I also thought it was interesting to observe the times as I worked my way back forward. My second 10 yard time was usually slower than the first, pretty much on par with the 12 yard time. Then when I hit 7 yards the speed picked back up again....like I had established a rhythm and subconsciously didn't want to break it.
 
Posts: 5810 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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These 2x4 targets were more of a challenge than I expected. I again used my AR9 SBR and figured this would be "hold my beer, I got this".

My first target had a score of 12/14. Average times of 1.03 seconds for the right + .68 seconds for the transition to the left = 1.71 seconds total. Oops, warming up, better slow down.

Second target of 13/14. Times of 1.09 + .78 = 1.87 seconds. Crap, now the pressure is on.

Third target of 14/14. Times of 1.16 + .96 = 2.12 seconds.


Not overly thrilled with my shooting, I kept practicing.
Fourth target of 13/14. Times of 1.18 + .89 = 2.07. The one miss was really, really close to being a hit.
Fifth try of 12/14. Times of .95 + .64 = 1.59. Speed was good, accuracy not so much.

My sixth and final practice was with 3x5 cards, to see if the smaller 2x4 cards were that much harder to hit.
Score of 14/14. Times of .97 + .56 = 1.53. Yep, bigger cards, mo' bettah.

Damn near blew it with the last shot -- high left corner on the left card. Times were .89 + .40 = 1.29 seconds for the final 5 yard pair.
 
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Nice shooting Fritz, and fast! The smaller cards are indeed tough at speed. Now you've got me wanting to try it with my 9mm AR just to see if that lighter, simpler config will help my times any (mine is lightweight and barebones, as opposed to that .223 with all the klunky stuff hanging off of it). Noah still hasn't shot it, so if we go out this weekend I may bring that one along.
 
Posts: 5810 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think it's worth giving your 9mm AR a try. Mine is definitely lighter than any of my 223 ARs. And even though the 9AR is lighter the 223s, recoil in my 9AR is lower.

The last few months has been a learning experience for me -- how I shoot faster with a lighter AR at close distances. Fast transitions are new to me, too. Not certain I want to change up my current 223 ARs, or even build a light weight 223 upper. But it does make me pause to consider options.
 
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Originally posted by fritz:
Not certain I want to change up my current 223 ARs, or even build a light weight 223 upper. But it does make me pause to consider options.


I've been toying with the idea of a lightweight .223 upper for a while now. It may happen eventually...just so many projects and only so much money at the moment. Just had to dump $100 that I didn't want to spend into sights for a personally-owned P320 slide so that I have something to shoot for a work class next week, because our worthless dealer can't make delivery in time on guns we ordered 3 months ago Mad.
 
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