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Picture of RichardC
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Well done!

To try ratshot from a rifled barrel handgun at 7 yards, you might need to put up four fly targets in a square. Big Grin
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Edited to add:


I had to try. Posted 4 targets at 21 feet, aimed one round at the middle intersection with 40+ year old Remington Hi Velocity ratshot from 4" rifled revolver.


Got two out of forty flies! Big Grin



It was louder and a bit tighter pattern than I remembered, so I put on earmuffs, and shot one round at the center of a single target
Got 6/20 flies.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RichardC,


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Posts: 13975 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Didn't have the time to shoot until late on Memorial Day afternoon, and I was beat. Shot 10/20 with the P6 on SA. Initially thought I had 11/20, but realized one hit was intended for a different fly -- ruh roh. Thought I could do better on a second attempt, but one of the many weekend's wind storms rolled through right as I set up the target. Scored only 6/20 on the second try and realized I was done for the day.
 
Posts: 7318 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Good shooting, fritz.

I don't think 'wrong fly' matters, any dead fly is a good fly. This is why we shoot flies ...

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Posts: 13975 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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any dead fly is a good fly.


Agreed, lol! Nice shooting Fritz. You pick the next one!
 
Posts: 5921 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Let's stick with the last week's fly target. I haven't tried this, so hopefully it's reasonable.

Short description -- Fly target at 25 yards, using a rifle, from a barricade-ish position.

Think of the barricade support as shooting from a window sill, or a low retaining wall, or a saw horse, or a pallet on end. The middle of the rifle will rest on the barricade -- and we can put one sand bag or rear bag between the rifle stock and the barricade. Here's an example -- game changer bag on a tank trap.


Our shoulder is the only rear support. No pump pillow, or other type of rear bag. No sticks or tripod or tall bipod. If your only option is to shoot from a bench rest, only one bag-like-thingie to support the center of the rifle -- and keep your elbows off the bench/table. This isn't bench rest shooting. Ixnay bipods, tripods, ransom rests, lead sleds. Barricade height is up to you, and maybe the constraints where you shoot. You can be sitting, kneeling, standing, or whatever in between.

If we choose a sitting or kneeling position, we can rest an elbow on a knee or thigh. I find this helps in steel matches, especially if we have time to futz around to compare stability of various positions.

Since many of us probably don't have our optics zeroed at 25 yards, we can take whatever steps are necessary to make POI equal POA at 25 yards. Shoot as many rounds as you want to "zero" at 25 yards, prior to going hot on the fly target. No time restraints.

Only 1 target attempt per rifle. However, we can repeat this challenge with as many rifles as you care to shoot. Any rifle, any caliber -- 22lr, AR15, bolt action, lever action, 50 BMG, 45-70, 308, you name it.
 
Posts: 7318 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My initial thoughts are to shoot this with a 22lr bolt action. I don't recall if the optics on that rifle have parallax down to 25 yards. If not, accuracy could be a challenge, due to fuzzy-looking flies.

Pretty certain none of my scopes for the AR15s have parallax settings closer than 50 yards. I may not do very well with an AR15, if I decide to try.

I know my precision bolt actions have parallax settings down to 25 yards, but I've never shot at targets so close. Pretty certain a 308 will exterminate the flies, but I don't know how well I can keep the rifle on target with such minimal support & stability.

I may even try the 9mm SBR.
 
Posts: 7318 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Have I misunderstood parallax settings?

I thought judging proper parallax setting was not whether the cross hairs or target image were in crisp focus, but whether the sight image moved around the target image as you moved your eye position slightly in relation to the ocular lens.

I'll be interested learn what power X I'll need to see the flies at 25 yards. At 7 yards, with pistol irons, I wasn't sure which of the double (appearing) fly images, or bullet holes I was aiming at.


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Posts: 13975 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by RichardC:
I thought judging proper parallax setting was not whether the cross hairs or target image were in crisp focus, but whether the sight image moved around the target image as you moved your eye position slightly in relation to the ocular lens.

The way I understand it, parallax is primarily that cross hairs and target image are on the same focal plane. Meaning that minor eye location movement within the sweet spot of the scope's eye box have minimal, if any, change in POI/POA.

IMO we won't be in a rock-solid shooting shooting position with this week's rifle-on-bag-on-barrier challenge. So parallax issues might come into play.

With my scopes, I find that significant errors (differences?) in parallax also result in a fuzzy target image. Given my poor eyesight, fuzzy fly images won't make the shooting any easier.

See...I'm whining and making excuses already.
 
Posts: 7318 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Well, this ought to be interesting...I'm definitely going to need some sort of magnification, and out of all the random stuff in my safe I only own 2 rifles with magnified optics:

1. A Glenfield Model 25 with a 4X Nikon Prostaff that has a trigger that makes you question what's going to break first...the sear/striker engagement or your index finger. The gun is light and well balanced, though.

2. A Savage Model 10 in .223 with a heavy barrel and a 4-14.5 Nikon Buckmark. I'll probably go with this one, but its not exactly svelte and the non-traditional shooting position won't play to it's strengths.

I'm looking forward to shooting it, though...it's been too long since I've had the scoped bolt guns out.

My wife is gonna hate you, though, Fritz, because the outcome I predict here is me wanting to buy another rifle Big Grin.
 
Posts: 5921 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by 92fstech:
My wife is gonna hate you, though, Fritz, because the outcome I predict here is me wanting to buy another rifle

My work is done here.

quote:
Originally posted by 92fstech:
2. A Savage Model 10 in .223 with a heavy barrel and a 4-14.5 Nikon Buckmark. I'll probably go with this one, but its not exactly svelte and the non-traditional shooting position won't play to it's strengths.

The Savage might work better than you expect. If you can balance the rifle a little forward of the magazine on the barrier, it should be quite stable. A heavy gun with the low recoil of a 223 is fairly easy to shoot accurately.

Shooting from barriers isn't my strength and I need to practice more regularly. The experienced PRS guys shoot from barriers like it's no big deal. Sometimes it works well for me (right hand shooter) to position my left hand on top of the scope's elevation turret, with a little downward pressure on the scope. This stabilizes the rifle a bit and takes some of the "squishy" slack out of the bag that's between the rifle and the barrier. If the barrier is low enough to use a kneeling or sitting position, I try to place my right elbow on my right thigh or knee -- to provide additional support to the rear of the rifle.
 
Posts: 7318 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Got zeroing done on bench, then used flimsy plastic sawhorse for the 'barrier' to shoot the match, two knees down, like this guy: but offhand on rifle under scope.

Couldn't settle wobble to less than two fly wingspans. I should be able to do better than that, right?

11/25.



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Posts: 13975 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Nice work Richard! I had to drive home from dropping the kids off in NC today and was hoping to get back in time to shoot this, but the drive took longer than I thought and the sun was getting pretty low. I didn't want to rush it so I shot some handgun drills and tried out the new BK grips on my model 31 instead. Hoping to have enough time tomorrow before work to give this a go.
 
Posts: 5921 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by RichardC:
Got zeroing done on bench, then used flimsy plastic sawhorse for the 'barrier' to shoot the match, two knees down, like this guy: but offhand on rifle under scope.

Couldn't settle wobble to less than two fly wingspans. I should be able to do better than that, right?

I suspect you're fighting instability of both the sawhorse and the double knee technique. A good bag such as the Game Changer helps, but you need a solid front support and a reasonably solid rear support to shoot with precision from a barrier. Reverse kneeling with the right leg up is more stable IMO.

The 2x4 tank trap that I posted on June 1 was broken by cattle. Frickin cows, they beat the crap out of my target supports and shooting positions. I built the tank trap from scrap lumber, so I can do it again. Not the most solid barrier in the world, but I eventually learned how to shoot pretty well from it.

I shot from a low kneeling position. The barrier is home made -- a vertical 4x4 sunk into the ground, with 2x8 horizontal wings. Somewhat of a "t" or cross shape, and rock solid. Pics tomorrow.
 
Posts: 7318 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I had to try. Posted 4 targets at 21 feet, aimed one round at the middle intersection with 40+ year old Remington Hi Velocity ratshot from 4" rifled revolver.


Just saw you added this....that's awesome Big Grin! You were right...that pattern doesn't provide the greatest coverage.

Headed out now to shoot this week's...if the range is available we'll see how it goes.
 
Posts: 5921 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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First up was a suppressed JP 22lr upper on a Wilson AR15 lower, using Wolf Match Extra. I really need to spend more time with this rifle, as it's just a joy to shoot. The Nightforce SHV scope has parallax down to 25 yards, so the sight picture was clear and precise.

I laid the gamechanger bag sideways. Left leg underneath me -- essentially sitting on my ankle. Right leg bent 90 degrees, right elbow on right thigh to provide rear support. Left hand on top of elevation turret. Maybe I can find a similar picture somewhere on the web.


The wood that resembles a cinder block is a sleeve that fits over the 4x4 post, which then increases the shooting height by 11". The 2 green t-posts are to protect the 4x4 post from cattle -- they tend to rub up against the metal posts, not the 4x4.

Here's the target for score with the JP upper, 17/20. Winds were an estimated 5-8 mph from my 3 o'clock. Enough to move both me and the bullet a little.


I then changed to the Kimber bolt action. But after I shot the Kimber, I came back to the JP because it's so much fun to shoot. Second go with the JP was 19/20. Winds changed to a switching 11-1 o'clock by this time.
 
Posts: 7318 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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As good as the JP upper is, my Kimber Classic sporter bolt action is just in a different accuracy class than the JP. Not quite up to the level of a Remy 40X conversion, but close. NF SHV 4-14x and Wolf Match Extra.


Winds were now switching headwinds, so I was watching the grass carefully for directional clues. This rifle is also very enjoyable to shoot. It's only challenge is it doesn't eject spent rounds with much authority -- sometimes they hang up in the open chamber. Score of 20/20.


If I get a chance to shoot next weekend, I might try an AR15 and/or a larger caliber bolt action.
 
Posts: 7318 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Very nice shooting fritz!


I hadn't read your post before shooting mine, but I'm kind of proud of myself now because I figured out putting my off-hand on top of the center of scope for stability all on my own...it helped some, but not enough to fix me.


I did something that probably would have made somebody crap a brick if they'd caught me...I had just gotten my grill propane tank refilled and it seemed like a solid base to shoot from, so I used it. No complaints about that as it didn't move at all, and the rifle balanced nicely on the bag (didn't get blown up, either Big Grin!). My biggest struggle was getting my inflexible 6'5" giraffe body and limbs all tucked in behind it in a manner that could aid in stabilizing the rifle. I wasn't terribly successful in that regard. I sat on my butt with my left leg crossed in front of me indian-style, right leg was upright and bent at the knee. Unfortunately, it didn't correspond well with the height of the rifle, and I had to cock it off to one side a bit, which made for less stability.


My first (and official) target was the one below...12/20 if you count the one that just clipped the end of a leg. I shot it a few more times just to see if I could improve or figure out a better technique. Best I did was 16/20.



 
Posts: 5921 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Excellent shooting fritz and 92fstech.
You guys are straight up exterminators.


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Posts: 13975 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by 92fstech:
I had just gotten my grill propane tank refilled and it seemed like a solid base to shoot from, so I used it. No complaints about that as it didn't move at all, and the rifle balanced nicely on the bag (didn't get blown up, either Big Grin!). My biggest struggle was getting my inflexible 6'5" giraffe body and limbs all tucked in behind it in a manner that could aid in stabilizing the rifle. I wasn't terribly successful in that regard. I sat on my butt with my left leg crossed in front of me indian-style, right leg was upright and bent at the knee. Unfortunately, it didn't correspond well with the height of the rifle, and I had to cock it off to one side a bit, which made for less stability.

Kudos for thinking out of the box for a barricade. The tank was probably solid as a rock. I like it.

I hear you on getting low behind a rifle. The years, the injuries, and the mileage builds up. After ranch work, my left knee complained a lot about being bent, and especially sitting on my left ankle. I went in & out of shooting position like a tired old cow -- not like a ninja warier. Consider using bags to help with knees & ankles. Under an ankle, under a knee, between ankle & butt, under butt. The most stable positions behind barriers are when we're using our muscles the least and our bones the most to support the gun. The really good PRS shooters get into funky positions quickly and with minimal effort. It's cool to see them shoot. The bastards.
 
Posts: 7318 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Here's a good example of scopes which do or do not have close parallax/(focus).

First up is my oldest AR15, a Wilson Combat. On its second barrel -- unfluted mid-contour 1:8 16" stainless Wilson Recon. Currently has a Vortex Viper PST 2, 2-10x scope. Minimum parallax adjustment is supposedly around 25 yards, but I found out today it will go closer than 25 yards. A very good scope for the money, with clear and bright glass. I believe the scope was set a little less than 10x and the flies were clear as can be.


Of the three 16" WC barrels I've owned, this one is the least spectacular accuracy. It's still very good, but a little pickier with loads. Score of 20/20 and it felt like child's play.
 
Posts: 7318 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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