Half the reliability??? I have never seen an issue with a P7. They are some of the most reliable pistols I have ever seen. More so then Glocks in general.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
Half the reliability??? I have never seen an issue with a P7. They are some of the most reliable pistols I have ever seen. More so then Glocks in general.

Yup! Want to get a P7 to stop shooting? Just ask the owner about it. They won't shut up about it giving you plenty of time to steal their wallet, pillage their house, run off with their wife...

Now I have a machine gun. Ho.....ho.......ho

I don't know. My 228s are in the same league, size wise. And with MecGar magazines they also hold 15+1. Some dope will come along and argue an ounce hear or there. I wish the Glock 19 pointed better for me. Or any Glock for that matter. But they don't.

Ok can't argue that about a lot of P7 owners.

But come on man it uses magazines blessed by Tibetan monks and rubbed over the naked bodies of 100 virgins. Well at least that was what I was telling myself as I dropped $500 on magazines.

All jokes aside it's no Glock 19 competitor but it is a phenomenal handgun. The ole Teutonic staple gun is overpriced and over complicated but it is a VERY GOOD handgun.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:


But come on man it uses magazines blessed by Tibetan monks and rubbed over the naked bodies of 100 virgins.

Don't forget that gas chamber scraper shaped like the legendary swords of medieval times. The Durandal pedigree is unmistakable. You can also stab somebody in the eye with it if you forgot to scrape that chamber and P7 refused to cycle right.

The Glock 19 isn't the Holy Grail. The ergo's suck, the factory sights suck, the serrated trigger sucks, the dingus on the trigger sucks. It's a good gun and on paper it looks like it's perfect. Reality is different. The HK P30, P2000 and USP Compact are almost identical in size and they are 10 times better guns.

quote:

The HK P30, P2000 and USP Compact are almost identical in size and they are 10 times better guns.

P30...(belch)...

It all depends on the individual. Always has. Personally the P30 fails for me, but the VP9 is damn sweet. But I'll still pick a Glock over it when shoving follows the pushes.

If HK would ever make their guns with a button mag release, I'd buy them over my Glocks for the ergonomic advantage they offer.

I really like the USP Compact and P2000, but the mag release is a nonstarter for me.

The M&P Compact is a really nice gun IMO, it's just too short in the grip for me. Like you, I don't want to grip the mag unless i'm intentionally carrying a subcompact like the 26.

quote:

Originally posted by P6shooter:
The Glock 19 isn't the Holy Grail. The ergo's suck, the factory sights suck, the serrated trigger sucks, the dingus on the trigger sucks. It's a good gun and on paper it looks like it's perfect. Reality is different. The HK P30, P2000 and USP Compact are almost identical in size and they are 10 times better guns.

10 times! Wow, well that explains why I see at least 10 Glocks for every HK when I go to the range. It's actually how the balance of the handgun chakra is maintained.

All I can tell you is that if I carry a P30, I have to put on my best Ahhnold impression and say, "It's not a tumoh." If I carry my 19, I can get away with just Tommy Lee Jones.

It's a rather old picture, and that 19 and the 19 that followed it are both long gone.

To each is own. But I find the question a bit like "How come no one makes a dessert as good as my dog poo pie?"

quote:

Originally posted by cas:


It's a rather old picture, and that 19 and the 19 that followed it are both long gone.

To each is own. But I find the question a bit like "How come no one makes a dessert as good as my dog poo pie?"

If your Dog Poo Pie was the #1 selling ready-made dessert, you'd be asking yourself that question too. I mean isn't that what a Little Debbie Swiss Roll is basically?

And that's been the point all along. Why isn't Hostess making a Swiss Roll competitor (I know in reality they are and they're called Ho Hos, but for the purposes of discussion, let's pretend those don't exist). If Swiss Rolls are flying off the shelves, wouldn't you expect Hostess to come out with something really similar but maybe a little bit better, let's say with sprinkles on top?

I mean the last thing you'd do as Hostess if Little Debbie is kicking your pastry hindquarters is come out with a Swiss Roll competitor that had less filling or was less chocolaty. That'd be terrible. You'd make a big splash, everyone would go out and give it a try, and promptly go back to Little D and her three bites of heaven.

Yet that's exactly what happened here. Everyone wanted to copy the formula that Glock perfected yet the result was less than satisfactory in many ways. Some put sprinkles. Some put in more filling. Some even matched the iconic wrappers. None seem to be able to beat the overall package. And that's the part I can't figure out.

I'm not a Glock fanboy. I love my 1911s but hate carrying them all day. I will go out and shoot some of the guns suggested if any of the local ranges have them for rent. Definitely going to try the VP9 and I'll give the P2000 another go -- it's been a few years since I shot one. At least give me some credit that I'm not blindly going off and buying a Gen 5

I don't think the 19 is perfect. It does many things okay, which means it doesn't do anything really well. And what it does do, it only does okay. It's an adjustable wrench. If you're the kind of guy who only owns one wrench and doesn't need them to do much... well then okay.

I bought my 19's used, trade in NYPD guns. I paid $225 and $250 respectively, which is within what I feel they're worth. Both times I bought them for one reason, to have a gun to shoot GSSF with. The first time around I never did, so I sold it. The second time around I did, but realized it was boring and too much effort for what it was. The gun now had no purpose other than taking up space, so I sold it. (And believe me, I have plenty of guns that have no real purpose and just take up space, but I don't need boring, one small scoop of vanilla ice-cream, adjustable wrenches do that job, because honestly even most pointless guns have a point.)

quote:

Originally posted by cas:
I don't think the 19 is perfect. It does many things okay, which means it doesn't do anything really well. And what it does do, it only does okay. It's an adjustable wrench. If you're the kind of guy who only owns one wrench and doesn't need them to do much... well then okay.

I bought my 19's used, trade in NYPD guns. I paid $225 and $250 respectively, which is within what I feel they're worth. Both times I bought them for one reason, to have a gun to shoot GSSF with. The first time around I never did, so I sold it. The second time around I did, but realized it was boring and too much effort for what it was. The gun now had no purpose other than taking up space, so I sold it. (And believe me, I have plenty of guns that have no real purpose and just take up space, but I don't need boring, one small scoop of vanilla ice-cream, adjustable wrenches do that job, because honestly even most pointless guns have a point.)

Ok

I don't think the position was that the Glock 19 was perfect.

I think the position is simply that it strikes the OP as off that there aren't more direct competitors that at least match the G19 pound for pound.

I share his bewilderment. Everyone who has tried to take on the G19 can't hold the external dimensions and/or capacity. That does seem odd to me.

Heck CZ flat out made their P10c to fit in Glock holsters, but they can't hold the same external dimensions. What's up with that? Is it close-ish, yeah, but it's still bigger. The guns of similar size have less capacity and you have the mag as part of the grip. What's up with that?

Did Glock use black magic to create the G19? It does seem like we should have more options with the exact same, or better, external dimensions and capacity. The G19 isn't perfect for me, that's why I'd like some options.

quote:

Originally posted by esdunbar:
I don't think the position was that the Glock 19 was perfect.

I think the position is simply that it strikes the OP as off that there aren't more direct competitors that at least match the G19 pound for pound.

I share his bewilderment. Everyone who has tried to take on the G19 can't hold the external dimensions and/or capacity. That does seem odd to me.

Heck CZ flat out made their P10c to fit in Glock holsters, but they can't hold the same external dimensions. What's up with that? Is it close-ish, yeah, but it's still bigger. The guns of similar size have less capacity and you have the mag as part of the grip. What's up with that?

Did Glock use black magic to create the G19? It does seem like we should have more options with the exact same, or better, external dimensions and capacity. The G19 isn't perfect for me, that's why I'd like some options.

That's exactly it, albeit put far more eloquently than my pastry analogy.

I can't think of any $500+ item that I own that has not changed much in 25ish years. My computer, my appliances, my car, my bicycle -- they've all changed. Even my suits have different cuts and my shoes have different materials for soles.

Yet the Gen 5 Glock is basically a Gen 2 with a smaller backstrap. Late 80s technology comin' back in fashion!

And no, it's not perfect. Far from it. I wish the backstrap didn't have the stupid hump. I wish the trigger was better. I wish the grip was a bit smaller and less blocky. I wish the trigger guard was undercut more, and that the factory sights weren't so awful. There are many things I would change and judging by the aftermarket, as would many other people.

So why has someone not come out with an inch thick, double stack gun with say 12+1 capacity, with a better grip, a nicer trigger, and good sights? Give it a 3.75" barrel...just to be a bit shorter. Make the overall height 4.95"...just to be a bit shorter. Give it a smooth trigger right out of the factory...just to be a bit better.

Nobody has done it. And I don't know why.

"So why has someone not come out with an inch thick, double stack gun with say 12+1 capacity, with a better grip, a nicer trigger, and good sights? Give it a 3.75" barrel...just to be a bit shorter. Make the overall height 4.95"...just to be a bit shorter. Give it a smooth trigger right out of the factory...just to be a bit better. "

P320 subcompact seems really close!

]

quote:

Originally posted by 10round:
"So why has someone not come out with an inch thick, double stack gun with say 12+1 capacity, with a better grip, a nicer trigger, and good sights? Give it a 3.75" barrel...just to be a bit shorter. Make the overall height 4.95"...just to be a bit shorter. Give it a smooth trigger right out of the factory...just to be a bit better. "

P320 subcompact seems really close!

]

It is! I need to go play with one sooner or later -- no range around here seems to have one as a rental.

Do you know if you can put a subcompact slide/barrel on one of the compact grip modules?

...or the M&P compact. The SIG is wider than both.

quote:

Originally posted by 10round:
"So why has someone not come out with an inch thick, double stack gun with say 12+1 capacity, with a better grip, a nicer trigger, and good sights? Give it a 3.75" barrel...just to be a bit shorter. Make the overall height 4.95"...just to be a bit shorter. Give it a smooth trigger right out of the factory...just to be a bit better. "

P320 subcompact seems really close!

]

Meh, it's nothing special I don't know where all that talk comes from. 15 years ago I looked at the g19 and P228 side by side and chose the P228 and to this day stick by my choice. Best 9mm on the planet.