The beauty & genius of the G19 is in its simplicity and reliability. It is what the Ak-47 is to rifles but one step further, with accuracy. It may have contenders & even rivals, but it all comes back to track records and who has adopted it successfully. Like I always said, a Glock pistol will win more gunfights than beauty contests. Isn't that what a pistol is supposed to do?

I found your gun. I just did some comparisons.

Although the P2000 is dimensionally very similar and smaller in some ways the a G19 it is heavier on my scale, although I was weighing a loaded .40 but the HK is a more substantial gun.

What I did find damn near a perfect comparison was a.........

Walther P99AS. Dimensionally when laid on top of the G19 it's damn near identical just with different cuts or curves and you know ergonomics.

Weight was 1 lb 14 oz for my loaded G19. 1 lb 15 oz for my loaded P99. The P99, however has a 16 round mag in it vs the Glocks 15.

I don't have a PPQ to compare.

And yes I have a life.....just not tonight.

quote:

Originally posted by caneau:

quote:

Originally posted by FenderBender:
what I fail to grasp is how no one can seem to match the capacity of glocks.

I don't mean to be rude but, who cares?

Have you ever heard of a defensive, non-LE use of a handgun where more than 10 rounds were used? I've read dozens of accounts of such uses and even seen a few videos. Seven or eight is about it. It's usually over in three or four shots.

Short of a prolonged firefight which is virtually unheard of outside of the military and law enforcement, there's no real need for 15 rounds. 10 or 12 would be more than sufficient if packaged appropriately in something that was easy to carry and easy to shoot.

They by that logic, a single stack 9MM is the equal or better of the G19, since you only need 3-4 shots.

Fact remains you can't be a G19 competitor unless you match it's capacity. IMO, anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by caneau:

quote:

Originally posted by FenderBender:
what I fail to grasp is how no one can seem to match the capacity of glocks.

I don't mean to be rude but, who cares?

Have you ever heard of a defensive, non-LE use of a handgun where more than 10 rounds were used? I've read dozens of accounts of such uses and even seen a few videos. Seven or eight is about it. It's usually over in three or four shots.

Short of a prolonged firefight which is virtually unheard of outside of the military and law enforcement, there's no real need for 15 rounds. 10 or 12 would be more than sufficient if packaged appropriately in something that was easy to carry and easy to shoot.

They by that logic, a single stack 9MM is the equal or better of the G19, since you only need 3-4 shots.

Fact remains you can't be a G19 competitor unless you match it's capacity. IMO, anyway.

Bell curve. What standard deviation are you willing to accept? : )

Personally, I'm at about two to the right of the mean : D

I can accept 2 fewer rounds (13), but that assumes the size, weight, and grip are equal to the G19.

Most pistols fail to do that - so fewer rounds with more overall size, weight, or smaller grip doesn't make any sense to me.

And often it isn't just one of those factors, it's several.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
I can accept 2 fewer rounds (13), but that assumes the size, weight, and grip are equal to the G19.

Most pistols fail to do that - so fewer rounds with more overall size, weight, or smaller grip doesn't make any sense to me.

And often it isn't just one of those factors, it's several.

With that I agree.

It's an interesting post that has some excellent points. I ordered a new holster today from Ryan at http://rgrizzleleather.com/owb-holsters.html I debated between a holster for my G19 Gen 3, a P2000 and a VP9. I went with the G19. I'm sure I will follow up with the P2000 and the VP9 but the GLOCk was first choice for a variety of reasons and for most of the same reasons you covered. I also ordered night sights for the G19 and put off sights for the P2000 as well.

I've wondered about this myself many times. If their slides were narrower and HK hadn't limited the magazine capacity the USP compact and P2000 would be about the closest in size and capacity that I've seen.

quote:

Originally posted by sigspecops:
I've wondered about this myself many times. If their slides were narrower and HK hadn't limited the magazine capacity the USP compact and P2000 would be about the closest in size and capacity that I've seen.

You know, a striker fired P2000 with a made-for-humans button magazine release would probably be the exact gun I have in mind.

So close, HK. Now that the 416 is a big hit, can you use your new-found profits to make a gun for the rest of us? Pretty please?

quote:

Originally posted by FenderBender:
what I fail to grasp is how no one can seem to match the capacity of glocks.

Don't have a scientific explanation, but a couple of possible choices are:

- other manufacturers don't want you to use a hammer to drive that last round in so it can be called a 15 round mag?
- other manufacturers don't want you to use that same hammer to seat that mag on an in-battery reload?
- other manufacturers want you to be able to remove their mag base pads without having to leverage them so hard that the hole in the pad becomes elongated?

quote:

Originally posted by caneau:

quote:

Originally posted by Prefontaine:

quote:

Originally posted by FenderBender:
what I fail to grasp is how no one can seem to match the capacity of glocks.

Nor match their light weight. The combo of weight, capacity, and size remains unsurpassed.

The G19 is lighter than most subcompact guns. That's nuts.

All of them are, 26 is light and shoots like a full size. 17, even though she is full size, very easy for me to carry in the winter due to the light weight. Capacity is a big one on the list, but man so is that weight. Even a few ounces is noticeable during a very long day. When you've got a spare mag, maybe two, on that same belt, and a light, weight is a big factor. And that's a civilian talking, LE has the batman belt on all day during work days.

The Glock has a couple major things going for it. Capacity, weight, simplicity. You factor in all the sizes where controls are all the same, the caliber options to boot, well good luck to whomever knocks them off or down. They are gonna need it. And that's coming from an ingrained and mucho prefero DA/SA guy. I fought them for years, like many here, lost, and ended up talking to the f'in Star Wars Emperor from Return in Para's thread. I still don't like strikers but the weight and capacity, coupled with reliability, part/mag costs, and especially simplicity in design. It finally put the coffin nails in. But I needed a Gen 4 and Large beaver tail to do it. And the 26, it ain't my favorite of all time, but imo the best ccw ever made. The 19 ain't the star over here, that's the 26 and 17. I like and carry the 19, but I love that 26 and 17 so much more.

A whole hell of a lot of people. Either they want a medium sized gun with LOTS of magazine capacity, or they want something tiny and pocketable. And no one ever complained about not running out of ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by caneau:

quote:

Originally posted by FenderBender:
what I fail to grasp is how no one can seem to match the capacity of glocks.

I don't mean to be rude but, who cares?

Have you ever heard of a defensive, non-LE use of a handgun where more than 10 rounds were used? I've read dozens of accounts of such uses and even seen a few videos. Seven or eight is about it. It's usually over in three or four shots.

Short of a prolonged firefight which is virtually unheard of outside of the military and law enforcement, there's no real need for 15 rounds. 10 or 12 would be more than sufficient if packaged appropriately in something that was easy to carry and easy to shoot.

quote:

1) It was called the Thunderbird : )

Yes, I recall. And how many units of those did Ford sell this year?

And if you want to go back to when they were still selling them, did it morph into the world class sports car Corvette slayer, or did it become bastardized into some do-all four seat family friendly coupe? (Which, ironically, put them in competition with their own Mustang) Starting to see my point?

How many big money gun companies have made their bones being in the replication business? I can think of some off-hand, ATI/Rock Island/Para etc. and to some degree, Springfield Armory - who replicate the 1911. Outside of that? Nada.

Sig made their money with the innovative and dead-nuts reliable P series guns. S&W with their revolver line and third gen autos. Colt with the SAA and 1911. So on, so forth. What do these companies stand to gain by replicating an existing firearm with 30+ years of a head start? Where is the profit motive? What do they stand to lose? What are you going to build that is as good and as cheap as a Glock, that you can sell and make a profit with?

Why would Sig, or anybody else for that matter, want to invest the time, money, marketing, etc into a brand new design that you need to sell for $499 per copy (to be competitive) and sell a shit-ton of (to recoup costs) in a market that, we all will admit, is saturated with long-standing designs that are as good or better? And do so in an environment that is seeing demand dwindle and supply stack up?

When you can answer that, you will have your answer.

And understand, these other players have their stuff bought and paid for. They can manipulate pricing in ways a new player just can't. Let's say you did it - just for fun. Caneau Gunworks develops the perfect competitor for the G19. Same dimensions, a few mm smaller even. Same weight, or even an ounce or two lighter. Same capacity. Same reliability and quality control. And somehow, by some miracle, you bring this to market at your $499 target price.

...then Glock drops their price to $399. Why not? It's not like they need the profit for new R&D or to pay for infrastructure. They already sell to departments and such for that or less. What stops them from saying Blue-Line price for everyone?

So you get some new investors, sell some package deals to some departments, and magically match their price somehow. There, now it's game on. Right?

Only now you're staring down an army of lawyers. Seems one or more of your parts too closely mirrors something Glock already held a patent on. Now you're paying $50 per copy sold - of your reduced price - to them per your infringement settlement. See S&W.

Then, some fuckknuckle at the department you sold to shoots some overcharged hand load at a training session and his buddy videos the kaboom and it goes viral on youtube. Next thing you know, MAC is on there shoving eight pounds of goat shit into your chamber and dunking your gun in the lagoon to show the world how it won't go into battery. Yeager's on there too, talking crap about how he knew you back in his days at Blackwater and you never were worth a shit and everyone should buy a Canik instead. Then Haley accidentally shoots his videographer and blames it all on your gun. Even Hickok has an off day and can't hit the gong with it.

Suddenly departments are wary of your stuff. Keyboard commandos won't touch it because their hero of the day says so. There's horror stories on every forum of the web. Then - just to make your day - Glock offers a $50 rebate, courtesy of the money you're paying them when you do manage to sell one.

Investors are backing out, bills aren't getting paid, and shit goes south in a hurry. In less than two years, you go from chairman and ceo of Caneau Gunworks, a successful gun maker with a legitimate competitor to the Glock 19, to bankrupt and homeless, selling you body on the street for lunch money.

Glock puts their price back up to $499 and the world spins on.

(Don't get mad dude, just being satirical, but I like to illustrate my point.)

There are plenty of competitors to the G19. I own a lot of them. They vary in capacity, size, weight, whatever, but they've viable, acceptable competitors.

I own a G19. I own a number of G19's. I also own a number of other Glocks, Berettas, Rugers, Sigs, yada, yada, yada.

To suggest that a G19 competitor should have the same controls, size, weight, capacity, whatever, is ridiculous. There are plenty of viable alternatives to the G19, and some of them are other Glocks. I often carry a G32.

The P320 is a good choice. I'm not a s&w fan, but the M&P is widely liked. HK makes some very reliable firearms. I own a number of those, too. I have no hesitation slipping a HK45C in my waistband. Not the same capacity? Who cares? That's why God invented extra magazines. I wasn't concerned carrying 5 and six shot revolvers. I'm not concerned with a 7 or 8 round magazine in a 1911. Certainly not worried about an eight round magazine in the 45C, either.

A P229 is a really hard pistol to beat. I like it enough I just bought another, this one a legion in .357 Sig.

The PPQ makes a good choice, but then thinner might be the ticket; the G43 drops in my pocket a lot, or a G26 or G32 because sometimes it's not thin, but length. Sometimes it's a j frame revolver, because the G19 isn't appropriate or the occasion.

They're all competitors. I just got a Ruger Redhawk. It's heavier than a G19, holds less rounds, but Ruger got my money instead of Glock and I could have bought two Glocks for what the Redhawk cost. That makes it a competitor that won.

The Navy likes the G19 enough to issue it. The USMC likes Glock now. A lot of people like Glock, and there are a lot of other choices, too. Plenty of competition, though.

quote:

Originally posted by caneau:
Have you ever heard of a defensive, non-LE use of a handgun where more than 10 rounds were used? I've read dozens of accounts of such uses and even seen a few videos. Seven or eight is about it. It's usually over in three or four shots.

Short of a prolonged firefight which is virtually unheard of outside of the military and law enforcement, there's no real need for 15 rounds. 10 or 12 would be more than sufficient if packaged appropriately in something that was easy to carry and easy to shoot.

Yes.

Read an account in GUNS mag a few years ago of a bodyguard for a female doctor in Johannesburg fighting off several home invaders in her house. He emptied his P226, very rapidly, got one or two of them, and luckily the others ran off.

We do regularly hear of home invasion with multiple assailants.

The G19 turns 30 next year. Motley Crue was cool when it was being designed and the Ford Taurus was the pinnacle of automotive engineering. When it comes to music and cars, we've learned a thing or two since then. At least I hope headbands and thongs outside of acid washed jeans never make a comeback.

Y'all have listed off a lot of guns that come close. P10, 320 Compact, P99, etc. "Oh, it's only a bit wider", "It only holds three rounds less", "It's almost as easy to carry". That's more excuses than post-election Hillary. "If we had only carried the purple people eater base and a Caracal C's slide didn't explode with +P ammo, the world would be different."

30 years and "Almost as good" is the best we can do? That's borderline government level of complacency and laziness. And I'd know...I work for the government. We have complacency perfected to an art form.

And no, your .44 Magnum revolver is not a G19 competitor no matter how many times we watch Clint extract a 6" revolver from under a suit jacket without him looking awkward. If I tried that, I'd have the grace of a newborn gazelle seeing its tail for the first time.

A competitor isn't something or someone that is "almost as good". That's an "also ran" and they tend to make a big splash at first and then are promptly forgotten. The fact I didn't even think about the P99 and P2000 probably says a thing or two as to which bucket they fall into. A competitor does many things better than you or your product on things that are key selling points. Lamborghini and Ferrari are competitors because a selling point for each is horsepower. My used 2013 Acura may have more airbags than either of them but nobody is crossshopping an F458 with an Acura ILX on the basis of safety.

"Yeah, I would have gotten the Gallardo but the seatbelt pre-tensioners on the Civic sold me".

And that's my point. In 30 years, nobody has made a better all around carry gun than a G19 because nobody has bested Glock in the areas most important to the people buying their product -- reliability, weight, size, etc. So we wind up with a whole bunch of products nobody remembers in a decade.

And that's disappointing. Because I've carried a Glock for a decade and shot them for twice as long. Every time a new generation comes out, I wonder if I'll switch to something new and different or just get the next iteration because I'm silly enough to pay $500 for adding or removing finger grooves. And guess what, the finger grooves have won twice already.

quote:

Originally posted by saigonsmuggler:

quote:

Originally posted by caneau:
Have you ever heard of a defensive, non-LE use of a handgun where more than 10 rounds were used? I've read dozens of accounts of such uses and even seen a few videos. Seven or eight is about it. It's usually over in three or four shots.

Short of a prolonged firefight which is virtually unheard of outside of the military and law enforcement, there's no real need for 15 rounds. 10 or 12 would be more than sufficient if packaged appropriately in something that was easy to carry and easy to shoot.

Yes.

Read an account in GUNS mag a few years ago of a bodyguard for a female doctor in Johannesburg fighting off several home invaders in her house. He emptied his P226, very rapidly, got one or two of them, and luckily the others ran off.

We do regularly hear of home invasion with multiple assailants.

So one example from a publication a few years back that occurred in a the most violent city in the world to a person who was targeted enough she needed a body guard. I live in a place where we have at most one homicide a year. I'll accept whatever risk I have when I go jogging without my body armor.

And if they're in my house, I have far more amusing toys to choose from than a compact 9mm pistol.

quote:

And if they're in my house, I have far more amusing toys to choose from than a compact 9mm pistol. Big Grin

Just make sure to have your knife to fight to your pistol to fight to your rifle in the safe.

quote:

Oh yeah, and it had the ridiculous paddle magazine release.

Say what you want about the paddle release, but they are undoubtedly better for CCW. Do a google search of gun forums and look up how many people accidentally dropped or dis-lodged their mags accidentally by putting pressure on the US-style button release. You'll find tons

PS. CZ PCR or HK P2000 FTW. Both pistols give up one round to the glock, and at the same time they don't require herculean effort to seat the mag when there is a round chambered. Plus, IMO they are as good if not better than the G19.