In the series of, "Caneau asks silly questions," here's another one for y'all...

Why is it so hard for a gun company to make a true Glock 19 competitor?

Allow me to explain. The G19 is a unicorn. For whatever beer-infused Austrian reason, it seems to strike the balance of easy to carry and easy to shoot like seemingly no other pistol. We all know the virtues, but what I don't get is why nobody has been able to replicate what seems like a simple formula:
- 4" barrel
- 5" height
- Three fingered grip without silly pinky extensions
- Just over an inch of width
- Manageable, consistent trigger out of the box

Now I know what you're thinking, "But Caneau, there are lots of compact pistols out there, you're just complaining." And you'd be right. Mostly. For a not-so-tall or big guy like me, a quarter of an inch in any of those dimensions is a huge deal. It's what makes or breaks whether I can conceal the gun, or whether it is pleasant to shoot at the range. And based on the gun's popularity, I think a lot of people share my sentiment.

So what do manufacturers do instead? They ignore what is probably the most successful carry pistol ever created and listen to...I don't really know. Because even the marketing and bean counter guys probably carry a Glock. They must get drunk, play with Solidworks, and build silly little sub-compact guns with 2 fingered grip, or slap a 4" barrel on a full-size frame Commander-style and call it good. The result is a gun that is well over 5" tall and prints like Gutenberg or a gun that is easy to carry but you second guess yourself when you pull it out of the holster because the pinch to your pinky might hurt worse than being stabbed/kidnapped/otherwise violated.

At some point I actually went to school and took a business class or something. It's never really helped me out because I still drive a used Acura, but I vaguely remember two principles:
1) Variation causes defects/problems (Six Sigma and all that garbage that didn't really do much for Motorola when they were extolling it)
2) If you can't do something 10 times better than the status quo, don't bother. One or two features isn't going to change too many minds (or the motto of every Silicon Valley critter who has read a Peter Thiel book)

So what do I see? There are dozens of varieties of every manufacturer's pistols. Polymer vs. aluminum frames, hammer vs. striker fired, colors, threaded barrels, different triggers, etc. And here I thought we left behind the Rainbow Coalition in the 90s. As if much of this makes a difference aside from a few initial purchases by the most "loyal" of customers. Yet not a single one that matches the G19's "magical" dimensions. What gives?

I mean look at the list -- not the fire-at-will P320 Compact, not Springfield's XD-of-the-month-club, Walther's PP[fill in the blank], HK's we-can't-decide-if-it's-better-with-a-hammer P30/VP9, or S&W's M&P Version 2.x Beta Preview. Heck, CZ went bunny rabbit style and now has more nearly identical variants (34 in 9mm alone) of its pistol that on the off chance you see one on your local gunstore's shelf, you're bound to have no clue what it is. And neither will the dude trying to sell it to you -- maybe lack of interaction with a gun store sales rep is the selling point.

And how hard could it be? Shove 12 or so round of 9mm into a 1" wide grip, don't make the controls protrude like the love handles of an aging rock star, equip it with one decent trigger (and please drop test the hell out of it) and give it a set of Trijicon HD night sights from the factory. Because you know we're going to buy the HDs anyway, and if I need more than a dozen rounds in a gunfight, I'm probably not there by accident.

So yeah, Bruce, if you're listening with regards to the thread about "What would you like Sig to make?" This. A thin, 12 round, 5" tall, 3-fingered grip Glock 19 knock off with night sights from the factory. Cut half an inch from the bottom of the new X-Carry and it'd be a good start. Either that or I just end up "updating" my Gen 4 19 to a Gen 5. Or is it G19M. Whatever. Just please no fish gills.

It definitely hits the sweet spot.

For me, the two competitors I owned (P320C and P30) are larger in every way compared to the G19.

Sure, they have Pic rails and all that, but it simply gives them higher bore lines and more size & weight.

If you drop to the P320SC or P2000SK / P30SK, they are a bit smaller, but sacrifice grip and 3-5 rounds of ammo.

RHINOWSO, the P2000 (not the SK) may have gotten the closest so far. But it was still bigger and certainly felt chunkier -- especially when compared to a Gen 4.

Oh yeah, and it had the ridiculous paddle magazine release. Yes, I said it, bring on the hatred along with the virtues of flossing three times per day. But seriously, I have to think about how to drop the mag every time I pick up someone's old Walther or HK. And I'm not that smart so I gotta conserve my brain cells.

And it has 2 fewer rounds of 9MM.

it probably has at least a little to do with the fact that it was one of the first of its kind. When I switched from SA/DA all metal hammer fired guns to the Glock there wasn't much in the way of competition. Now there are more striker fired polymer guns on the market but I'm not fortunate enough to play with other people's money. Investing in a new platform would mean a lot of money out of my own pocket. Then I'd need to invest time to become proficient with whatever flavor of the month I switched to. Since both time and money are limited in my case I choose to stay with my Glock.

I also wondered this same sets of questions overtime as the next month's gun rags hit the shelve.

- Original. Everybody else is a "me too", no matter how hard they try.
- Perfect size and capacity. A "do it all" gun.
- Very simple lines. That's what I like about it. No fancy serrations, slanted this, curved that, etc.
- Reliability is a given.

I tried several different platforms and sizes, at the end of the day I carry a G19 gen 4 most of the time and I don't regret it one bit. I shoot it surprisingly well and has good amount of rounds on board in a great size package. It may not be the most ergonomic handgun out there but it is a great self defense tool.

Similarly, nothing will replace the G19 for me. but I've really come to love my Caracal F. it's *slightly* taller since it's a full sized gun, but the barrel is the same length. i did love the Caracal C back when it was available though.

The P228 original was a competitor actually I thought superior to the 19. Don't always get Sigs business mindset.

I think it's the simplicity of the design. Most manufacturers "try" to make something better and end up making something bigger. Although the weight and capacity are off (12 round to 15) the Sig 224 is pretty close (smaller actually) but a totally different animal. The magazine capacity is the big hurdle for other companies.

What if Ford put in the R&D to develop a low slung, fiberglass bodied, two-seater, with a big engine in the front and drive in the back?

Let's call if the Forvette.

How many Corvette buyers would they steal? Would they recoup their R&D investment? Could they ever match or overtake the Corvette sales?

Another principal I'm sure they taught you in that school: if you can't do it better or cheaper than the other guy, then you're better off to be in the market where the other guy isn't. And if the other guy has a 30 year head start, you're not going to do it better or cheaper.

And, if Sig does what you suggest, as you suggest, it doesn't put them on par with what people "think" is Glock's best gun, the 19. It puts them squarely in the sights of what actually "is" Glock's best gun - the G26.

Loved the Gutenburg line though. Good stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by bionic218:

Loved the Gutenburg line though. Good stuff.

Yeah, that was pretty good. . .

quote:

Originally posted by bionic218:
What if Ford put in the R&D to develop a low slung, fiberglass bodied, two-seater, with a big engine in the front and drive in the back?

Let's call if the Forvette.

How many Corvette buyers would they steal? Would they recoup their R&D investment? Could they ever match or overtake the Corvette sales?

Another principal I'm sure they taught you in that school: if you can't do it better or cheaper than the other guy, then you're better off to be in the market where the other guy isn't. And if the other guy has a 30 year head start, you're not going to do it better or cheaper.

And, if Sig does what you suggest, as you suggest, it doesn't put them on par with what people "think" is Glock's best gun, the 19. It puts them squarely in the sights of what actually "is" Glock's best gun - the G26.

Loved the Gutenburg line though. Good stuff.

1) It was called the Thunderbird : )

2) 90% of the market is nearly identical and puttering. Then you have a super successful outlier. What boggles me is why everyone is cloning designs in a saturated market instead of pursuing why the outlier is probably the most successful compact pistol in history (depending if you consider the Hi Power compact). To your point, why would anyone enter a market with a dozen mature competitors?

What's interesting is that no one can really match the size, specifically the grip length. The CZ p10 is close but it's basically the same length as the 320 and all the others. It's that couple oz's and the grip length that no one seems to be able to duplicate. It just makes ease of carry at 15 round capacity second to none.

The CZ p10 I shot was pretty sweet but from a carry perspective all it does is add a little weight and size. No reason to replace my 19 because whatever advantage the CZ has (trigger) is pretty simple to add to my glock which I had already done anyway.

So all things being equal glock just wins. FYI not a fanboy actually resisted for as long as I could. if anything am a Sig fan and own 9

The CZ P07 is closest in size and still has a 15 round capacity. The biggest difference is that the CZ is not a striker fired gun.

So counterpoint.

Now let me preface with I think the Glock 19 is as close to the perfect pistol for all the reasons given.

Why can't Glock seem to make a gun designed for the human hand. I mean EVERY OTHER manufacturer actually has some assemblance of ergonomics. How hard would it be for Glock to find a human and splooge out some polymer to fit their hand.

The P2000 is almost a perfect hammer fired Glock 19 with actual ergonomics. Yeah yeah paddle love / hate I get it old dog new tricks blah blah.

Seriously though, I suspect the reason you don't see a direct competitor is because companies feel they can kill two birds with one stone. Make a slightly bigger G26 if you will and give it the capability to run various mag sizes. This gives the end user the ability to go from deep cover to basically small duty sized.
M&Pc
VP9c
P30c
P2000c
Ruger American compact
Etc.

All are that middle ground offering "the best of both worlds" so to speak while letting the company design and build two pistols instead of 3. I don't necessarily agree with that model, but that's my take on it.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
So counterpoint.

Now let me preface with I think the Glock 19 is as close to the perfect pistol for all the reasons given.

Why can't Glock seem to make a gun designed for the human hand. I mean EVERY OTHER manufacturer actually has some assemblance of ergonomics. How hard would it be for Glock to find a human and splooge out some polymer to fit their hand. .

Because it would then no longer be a Glock. It would be a HK, a Walther, a S&W, etc...

P-10C. So far it's about as close to being a G19 without actually being a Glock. And more rounded off for those who are mentally challenged at handling dimensional lumber.

I guess I just see a Glock 19 as a choice, and not a way of life. Too many other great guns out there. There are lots of competitors, lots of great choices, and the like. Maybe they are a hair bigger or smaller, hold a round or two less or more, but like it or not, they are competitors for the 19. I like the G19, and have a couple of them. Will probably buy another when the Gen5 guns come out, if there are no fleas. But, from the aspect of putting bullets on target, it doesn't do anything mystical or magical that the M&Pc, P10c, 320c, 2022, P228, P229, P30, etc won't.

There are too many great choices today that we weren't afforded when I started carrying a gun to say that the G19 has no true competitors. I am absolutely tickled we have all these choices and aren't forced to carry a Glock 19 because there truly isn't anything else in its class. And if it wasn't for the competition, we would be struck with Gen2 or Gen3 Glock 19's only.

Competition is a great thing.