quote:

Originally posted by arabiancowboy:

My apologies Trapper, my comment was not directed at you although I see it looks that way based on my double quote. More just reiterating SGT 127s point.

Thank you, no problem.

I should have had more context in my question.

Honestly this whole thing is starting to remind me of Philips and their cancer-causing-sound-deadening-foam-inside-their-CPAP-machines debacle

At first they denied it
Then they said it wasn't a big deal
Then they admitted it was kinda a big-ish deal
Then they started recalling them
Then they stopped making them
Then they lost billions
Then their CEO lost his job
Then the gov told them they can't sell CPAP machines here in the US anymore

Despite the FBI report:

SIG SAUER P320/M18 and P365 Fielded by the Michigan State Police

NEWINGTON, N.H., July 16, 2025 /PRNewswire/ -- SIG SAUER, Inc. is proud to announce the Michigan State Police has fully transitioned their agency to the SIG SAUER P320/M18 pistol with a SIG ROMEO-M17 optic and Foxtrot 2R light as their issued primary handgun system and the SIG SAUER P365 as their secondary firearm.

"We are proud the Michigan State Police chose SIG SAUER as its primary and secondary sidearm," began Tom Jankiewicz, Executive Vice President, Law Enforcement Sales for SIG SAUER, Inc. "The Michigan State Police conducted an exhaustive testing process to determine the selection of SIG SAUER pistols."

The SIG M18 was selected by the U.S. Army as part of the Modular Handgun System Program and is the P320 variant fielded by the United States Marines Corps. The P320/M18 will serve as the primary sidearm of the Michigan State Police. The SIG ROMEO-M17 red dot optic is military tested and assigned a NSN number, designed to meet the rigors of use by professional end users. The FOXTROT2R weapon-mounted white light was designed to meet the needs of tactical professionals. Together, this system provides a comprehensive, best in class primary handgun solution for the men and women who serve the Michigan State Police.

The P365 is a high-capacity micro-compact providing the Michigan State Police more capacity, concealability, and capability than other compact systems on the market. The ergonomic design of the P365 retains the characteristics of a full-sized pistol making it more effective than a typical concealable pistol, providing the Michigan State Police a highly concealable, reliable secondary firearm.

All SIG SAUER products are developed from the ground up to withstand the rigors of the professional user and we are proud to serve the Michigan State Police.

It’s raining, I’m bored so I started reading about Howard Northrop vs SIG Sauer.

Hillsborough Clerk of Courts Records Search I can’t seem to link the exhibits document directly. You can find the case by searching Howard Northrop and it’s document 151 from 4/24/23.

From Exhibit F, a report from Vigilante Forensic Human Factors Ergonomics Consulting, I found these excerpts interesting:

“Sean Toner is an Sig Sauer design engineer and team lead for the Sig P320 platform (ST, 43).
Toner was assigned to the Sig P320 project in the 2012/2013 time frame (ST, 45). Sean Toner testified that "unintentional discharge" is defined as the "a weapon firing without a purposeful trigger pull" (ST, 8).”

“Sean Toner testified that Sig Sauer started developing a tab trigger safety for the Sig P320 (ST, 28,29). Sig Sauer's 2014 website notes that it can provide a tab trigger safety version of the Sig P320 (ST, 31)24. Toner also testified that they could develop a tab trigger safety for their Sig P320 (ST, 34,39). Given Sean Toner's testimony in conjunction with the prolific use of tab trigger safeties on competitor striker fired polymer handguns there were no cost or technology constraints preventing Sig Sauer from integrating a tab trigger safety into the design of its Sig P320 line of handguns. Indeed, Sean Toner testified that he personally did not feel comfortable keeping a P320 holstered with a round in its chamber.“


“The Sig P320 trigger is significantly more sensitive than competitor striker-fired guns because of the substantially reduced movement required to fire the gun, and as a result is more prone and susceptible to unintentional discharge than other striker-fired guns. Consistent with the Sig P320's increased susceptibly to unintended discharge associated with its trigger design, Sean Toner, Sig Sauer's corporate designee, testified that he would be unwilling to have a holstered Sig P320 on his person with a round in the chamber (ST, 85-87).“

In other words, the engineer and team lead for the P320 said SIG started designing a tab trigger safety, and he would not carry a holstered P320 with a round in the chamber. Hmmm.

I can’t seem to find his entire deposition in the court records I’m looking at.

Ultimately, SIG won this case, but I believe an appeal has been filed by the plaintiff. Also of interest, the guy was having difficulty reattaching his keys to his duty belt right behind where his gun was holstered when the gun fired.

Yeah, somebody or other around here has suggested this before.

That guy is sharp, even the guy from SIG Sauer agrees with him under oath and all that.

Has anyone ever said why the tabbed trigger was really omitted? I can't imagine that it would add more than a few bucks to the cost of manufacturing one. Did they just want to be different in the striker market?

That's at least part of it.

The initial product reveal included discussion and example photos of the tabbed trigger that was intended for LE contracts that required it, but Sig shortly thereafter began marketing the P320's lack of a trigger safety as a desirable feature that was unique among its competitors.

Hitting mainstream media now.NY Post

Those vultures love stories like this. "Evil gun manufacturer produces guns that just go off by themselves."

quote:

Originally posted by newtoSig765:
Just go an e-mail from Gunsite Academy that they are no longer allowing the 320.

Same here.

Silent

I knew guys back then who bought a 320 because it didn’t have the tabbed trigger.
Some kind of hatred of the Glock trigger.
Hmmm, seems to work pretty great for a lot of us.

quote:

Originally posted by MNSIG:
Has anyone ever said why the tabbed trigger was really omitted? I can't imagine that it would add more than a few bucks to the cost of manufacturing one. Did they just want to be different in the striker market?

Nor would it be an expensive or difficult upgrade to release at this point. Apart from the implied admission that they should have included it in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
It's going to be falling dominoes now.

Does Sig have anything else with sufficient sales numbers to ride this one out?

Seems to me that the P365 and P320 lines are the VAST majority of their income. Without the P320, they just might have to file Chapter 11 or something soon unless they have enough income to stay afloat from other products.

For handguns? Maybe the 365. I would guess nothing else even close. The MPX and MCX are doing well for them, but I would guess it’s probably still not the bulk of their commercial sales. Additionally, with the way they’ve handled this, or at the very least, the perception of the way they’ve handled this is turning off a lot of people from wanting to give the company any business whatsoever. Earlier this year I was reluctantly starting to consider an MCX. I absolutely won’t be buying one now.

[/QUOTE] Apart from the implied admission that they should have included it in the first place.[/QUOTE]

It was offered. There was no interest so it was dropped.

quote:

Originally posted by bronicabill:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
It's going to be falling dominoes now.

Does Sig have anything else with sufficient sales numbers to ride this one out?

Seems to me that the P365 and P320 lines are the VAST majority of their income. Without the P320, they just might have to file Chapter 11 or something soon unless they have enough income to stay afloat from other products.

Then you have no clue about the financials of the company.

Interesting parts of the Northrop case that I have no way of linking:

The Tampa Police Department conducted an internal investigation and found:

There was no way a fully holstered P320 in the Safariland 7360 ALS/SLS holster could have fired and hit the gentleman in the left leg. The gentleman is right handed and the holster was on his right side.

There was no way a fully holstered P320 firing in that holster could have produced the extensive damage the gentleman’s holster had. They tested this by using a new holster of the same model, putting a string around the P320’s trigger, holstering the P320, locking the whole shebang in a Ransom Rest, and pulling the string.

They were able to replicate the damage the subject holster exhibited by repeating the test above but instead firing the P320 from a partially holstered position.

There was no way for a fully holstered P320 that fired in that model holster to eject the spent case and load a fresh round in the chamber as was observed in the gentleman’s P320.

Hmmm.

As to SIG’s financials, I found this in the Northrop case as well:

“167. In an interview in 2013, Sig Sauer's former Chief Financial Officer, Timothy Scullin, just before the P320 was brought to market in 2014, noted that Sig Sauer's revenue had risen approximately 1,400 percent from 2012 to 2013. He further stated that Sig Sauer's growth has outpaced the firearms' industry's growth by "two or three times."”

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
As to SIG’s financials, I found this in the Northrop case as well:

“167. In an interview in 2013, Sig Sauer's former Chief Financial Officer, Timothy Scullin, just before the P320 was brought to market in 2014, noted that Sig Sauer's revenue had risen approximately 1,400 percent from 2012 to 2013. He further stated that Sig Sauer's growth has outpaced the firearms' industry's growth by "two or three times."”

Hopefully a nice chunk of that revenue goes to the family of the deceased Airman. SIG needs to pay a heavy enough price for this that they change their ways significantly. In a perfect world this would chase Ron Cohen out of the gun industry forever. Hopefully this will be a lesson that chasing every possible cent of profit at the expense of ANY potential quality and reliability is a recipe for long term failure in the firearms industry.

Hey guys. I tried searching and I can’t read all the posts in this thread due to time constraints. Can you tell me if these problems are prevalent in tbe XTEN as well?