SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge Sigforum Christians, have you been "saved"? (And ongoing Christian faith-based discussion)
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| Member |
From Genesis to Revelation, the plan of God has been to redeem human kind and the ultimately the Universe. The promise was made to Adam and Eve after they disobeyed God. The Old Testament is filled with the promise of Redemption by God. In the opening Book of the New Testament, the promise of God is made manifest in the person of Christ. In the Old Testament (OT), covering for one’s sin was made by sacrifice. That sacrifice was type of the ultimate sacrifice to come. But that OT sacrifice, when made at the Temple, was consumed. They ate of the sacrifice (Leviticus 6 and on). It was taken in. I think this is what Jesus referred to when He referred to this in John 6:54. So, to just confirm that Jesus can remove sin is not enough. It must be “taken in.” Consumed. You see, it’s not good enough to “know” that a certain medication would cure me. It takes me “consuming” that medication to be of any help. So, intellectual consent is good, just not good enough. In the end, the Scripture makes it abundantly clear that two types of people exist- those who are redeemed and those who are not. Christ, Himself, told us that the road was wide that leads to destruction. God also told us that there is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end, leads to death. So, is Salvation universal? No. So, do all people go to Heaven? No. So, do people that have never accepted the Salvation that God provides go to Gehenna? Yes. God also has given mankind nature (Romans 1). And Romans 1 is clear that mankind has rejected that. So, what should God do? Just forgive everyone? If God just forgives everyone, then why the need for Christ? If one is unsure or questioning their security, the Scripture admonishes us to “examine ourselves.” There are no “mulligans.” Don’t get caught flat-footed when the time comes for each one of us to keep our appointment with God. | |||
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More on faith and works: 1 Corinthians 13:13 KJV "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." NLT "Three things will last forever - faith, hope, and love - and the greatest of these is love." NIV "And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love." According to Paul, loving our fellow man is the top priority of a Christian; the most important thing we can do. 1 John 4:8 and 4:16 "God is love." I also have a persistent memory of a hymn from my younger Catholic days: They'll Know We Are Christians. The recurring line in the hymn is "They'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love". As others have said, our works grow from our faith. It's implied by Paul as well. Faith is a required ingredient, but how we put ourselves to action is ultimately God's prize. | |||
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Member |
Nothing in those verses say anything about works being required for salvation. The most important thing a Christian can do is witnessing and soul winning. At the end of the day, a faith and works based salvation ALWAYS ends up being works based. Like was mentioned earlier in this thread, the thief on the cross was saved not having even one good work. Faith alone. ——————————————— The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Psalm 14:1 | |||
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| Member |
Indeed. The good thief. Works not required for salvation. But works, at the same time, are the most important thing we can do as Christians. | |||
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I make an effort to view most of these subjects through the atheist lens. I have had thorough conversations with two people close to me, who are not believers, about my faith. In an effort, of course, to nudge them nearer to Christ. The mere faith angle is not appealing to them. They hear "you just believe-in the sky daddy, and you go to heaven". They think it's silly. A works-related approach is more logical. Christ is logical too, but not to them. We know that once someone has faith, the works come naturally. I think that some people could be sold on the works, and the earnest faith would follow-on. | |||
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W07VH5 |
That’s a strawman. You’re attacking a position that no one holds. It is common for antinomians to make this argument though. | |||
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| Run Silent Run Deep  |
That’s because they have not seen the total weight and amount of sin in this world. As my faith grew so did the weight of sin. I started seeing it everywhere and the sheer damage that it causes every human being on this earth. Once a person truly pulls back the curtain and sees this, their faith grows, and they literally run towards the salvation of Jesus Christ. _____________________________ Pledge allegiance or pack your bag! The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. - Margaret Thatcher Spread my work ethic, not my wealth | |||
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There are plenty who believe that faith takes a back seat to works or its works alone to be saved. ——————————————— The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Psalm 14:1 | |||
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| Member |
While it's true, there are some that believe works are involved in salvation but it is "grace"-Ephesians 2:8-9, that saves us and is mentioned 170 times in the Bible and most in teh New Testament. Like the thief on the cross, all he did was put his faith in Christ alone to be saved. He was unable to do any works, as he was dying next to Jesus, what works could he do to earn salvation at that point? Judas Iscariot did works but they could not save him as he was not a true believer in Christ and did not look for repentance. In James, it speaks about not works saving us, but we do/should do works because of our faith. Anyone can say they believe in God/Jesus, even the demons believe who Christ/God is but a Christian has a true faith in what/who Christ is/did and His examples for us. A Christian does works "AFTER" salvation and it is in no way connected to your salvation. For example, what good is it to be a "Christian" when you see someone who is destitute wanting help and you do nothing for them other than speak a few words to them-James 2:16? We are to help those who need it and by our fruits, others will know who we are, Every good tree bears good fruit-Matt. 7:17. I keep my faith/eyes on Jesus and am trying to do what He wants me to do and I am in no way saying I am any better than any of you and I hope I don't come across that way as it is not my intention. When Jesus died for us, He said "It is finished" meaning everything He came to do, He did, so that we may be saved by God's grace-John 3:16,Titus 3:5-7, Galatians 2:16,Galatians 3:11, just to name a few. It is the Holy Spirit or the Comforter, who resides in us after we are saved, who came after Christ's death on the cross-(His baptism for us by blood, similar to the Old Testament animal sacrifice/shedding of blood) and is then able to reside in us. Jesus made this happen by His death on the cross and He told the apostles this in John 16. Also, we can say that water baptism does not save us and only shows others our desire to follow Him. Water/works do nothing for our sins, as it is by Jesus blood that baptizes us spiritually from our sin,Matthew 26:28. Acts chapter 10 speaks about Gentiles hearing things they had never heard prior and Peter said can we find some water to baptize them. In other words, the Gentiles were saved by a spiritual baptism by believing in Jesus and having faith that Jesus alone could save them, not by anything they did/were going to do. | |||
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delicately calloused |
Can a saved Christian lose his salvation with evil deeds? You’re a lying dog-faced pony soldier | |||
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| W07VH5 |
I see. Personally, I’ve never heard anyone make that claim but i have heard antinomians falsely state that Torah keepers hold that position. | |||
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| Member |
“Can a saved Christian lose his salvation with evil deeds?” At what level does a deed become evil? | |||
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| The Ice Cream Man |
The one about the Holy Spirit, which I do not even like saying/writing, and “maybe” hurting children. | |||
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| If you see me running try to keep up  |
You cannot lose something that you did nothing to get in the first place. As Jonathan stated, the only thing we contribute to salvation is the sin that makes its necessary. If we do nothing to gain it, we can do nothing to lose it. What is more likely is that the person who is in gross sin was never a recipient of salvation in the first place. See the book of 1st John. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not believing in the first place and rejecting salvation. | |||
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In the insanity vs evil thread, the church sex abuse scandal is cited as an example of unadulterated evil. Presumably none of the perpetrators were faithless men who opted to go through the rigmarole of formal theological and divine education merely to gain access to victims in that atmosphere (though it's not impossible for an extreme minority of cases). That said, these men presumably attained salvation, but were tormented by demons that fanned the flames of their addiction. It is possible that these men performed many honest, tearful confessions, performed their penance, and were forgiven. It is also possible some of them blasphemed the Holy Spirit and forfeited their salvation, though it is seemingly a topic of debate, whether that is possible. Considering these perpetrators are very likely tormented by demons, does Christ not have mercy on such souls? Is it possible for a mere man to be that evil all on his own, without demonic interference? These cases potentially serve as the issue to discuss, in considering the topic of whether it is possible to lose one's salvation. | |||
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| If you see me running try to keep up |
We see no New Testament example of people being tormented by demons after salvation. Once again, if someone is in habitual sin (which what you mentioned would indicate), they are not “saved” to begin with. After salvation, scripture teaches we are no longer slaves to sin, we now choose to sin. No, we are not sin free, but we are also not “slaves” to sin. We are no longer serving satan, but we are slaves (the Greek word doulos which is most often translated servant) to Christ. Pay special attention to Ephesians 5 below, which explains why I think they are no saved to begin with. 1 John 1:5-6 “ This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.” 1 John 2:4-6 “ Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.” 1 John 3:4-10 “ Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.” Romans 6:11-14 “ So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.“ Eph 5:3-5 “ But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.” Etc., Etc….. | |||
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| W07VH5 |
Ok, now this could be a serving of meat. What are “his commandments”? What is “lawlessness”? Specifically, what did these mean to the author and the audience addressed? | |||
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| delicately calloused |
This where I am confused. If one does nothing to gain salvation, then why must we act to be saved? If we must act by confessing Christ is our Lord and Savior, that is a choice. So again, if once we choose to accept salvation and then choose evil, do we lose that salvation? You’re a lying dog-faced pony soldier | |||
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money  |
I think this thread is starting to spin in circles now... "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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| Member |
Did we arrive at a definitive answer previously? From a chellim1 post earlier... In the extreme example of the touchy priests, I suppose it's safe to assume they regained their salvation (in penitent cases)? Or is their offense so grievous as to be unforgivable? The bible doesn't say so in so few words, as it does concerning blaspheming the Holy Spirit. | |||
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SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge Sigforum Christians, have you been "saved"? (And ongoing Christian faith-based discussion)
Main Page The Lounge Sigforum Christians, have you been "saved"? (And ongoing Christian faith-based discussion)© SIGforum 2024