quote:

Originally posted by mrvmax:

I would assume that is because what the Catholic Church teaches for salvation contradicts scripture by making it works and Christ.

That’s your belief, and totally ok for you to believe that.

If you actually want to dive into what the Catholic Church teaches, here’s a start: https://www.catholic.com/magaz...on/faith-and-works-0

Either way, Jesus loves you. If you truly believe that you are following him and doing what he asks, then I’m sure he will be understanding.

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:
That’s your belief, and totally ok for you to believe that...

Thanks, reloader-1: that's a good link and explanation.

The trouble with Pascal’s wager is it eliminates faith in Christ. It’s simply a safe gamble. To the point of thoughts and temptations especially as applied to what was described as the contemporary Left, my perspective is just because you have a thought, temptation or proclivity, doesn’t mean one must entertain them or develop the appetite. To the contrary, there is eternal value in resisting and developing our character to be more like Christ’s perfect one. As to who is Christian and who isn’t, I still think Christ alone makes that determination and it’s almost blasphemous to set oneself in His place of judgement. What’s more, it has an air of superiority which is…….un-Christlike if one examines His personality. However, it’s not my place to accuse overtly.

I like JHE’s perspective. My own practice and faith dictates I accept Christ as my savior from spiritual death and align myself with His doctrine. I do that in faith and am relying on His mercy at judgement. I evangelize to my family and with those who are willing. That’s it. I have peace in my heart with that.

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The trouble with Pascal’s wager is it eliminates faith in Christ.

I was going to say something similar. A belief rooted in a Pascal's Wager mindset is not a "true" belief. It's a very worldly/mortal motivation. It's very me/I, and has little to do with Christ.

"What can I do to ensure the best possible outcome for me? Seems as though a belief in the Judeo-Christian God is the best wager. Even if it's false I will have lived a righteous(in the worldly sense) life. If it's true, there's paradise waiting for me."

The problem is in that there's no belief that it is in fact true. And therefore an absence of faith.

Of course there's the (good) possibility that true faith can grow from a Pascal's Wager(er). So I won't knock the concept entirely.

You can say what you want about Pascal's wager but it turns out that it's the position I took back then. My church dad, Dave, told me about the importance of believing in Jesus and I trusted Dave. He just asked me to think about it and I did. Quite a lot. A whole lot.

My conclusion when I was 15 was that, if this isn't real, the worst that can happen is that I live a good life with these Christian values. If it is real and I don't give in to it, then I'm totally screwed. (I used those words with him, he chuckled.)

You can say that I wasn't a true christian then and that's ok with me. I may very well be true. However, it's the seed that grew like crazy in my life. I dedicated myself to reading the Bible and following what it said.

Then one day, I was reading and discovered that all those prophecies and the meaning behind the biblical holy days were real. They all came true in the correct time and in the correct way. What made the entire thing sink in was that there is no way everything would fit together like that unless an eternal (meaning not affected by time) being revealed it and caused it to happen.

That's my biggest beef with the modern church, they took all that away and forced me to discover it by myself. They fully admit that they have authority on earth to change scripture and I find that untenable. They replaced the biblical holy days with secular holidays and had I not discovered them in scripture, I'd have never truly believed. The things that are covered up, I feel are purposeful and that's the basis of my arguments.

I guess you could say that I'm saved in spite of the church, not because of it.

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Spiritual warfare is a part of being Christian - and an incredibly important reason to raise children in faith.

“Letting your children find Jesus on their own,” is downright demonic. (Admittedly, so are some leaders of some churches.)

I already quoted the first two lines in this post of Aglifter's. He said much in few words. I wonder how many Christian parents think this way. Surely none. How could they? I can see an atheist or apostate feeling that way, but surely not a Christian.

Mark, I think there’s value in Pascal’s wager as a starting point. As you stated, it worked for you. There was a time in my youth when I hadn’t developed enough faith that Pascal’s wager was my policy. That’s even before I knew what it was. I think faith comes naturally as one lives life in the gospel.

Pascal's Wager served as the starting point for both mark and darth. I didn't intend to wholly discount the wager, and I did concede that it creates the potential for growth of a true faith.

I suppose my bottom line was a mere wager is not meaningful. If one lives their entire life only within the confines of the initial wager, I think they'd be in for a surprise upon judgement.

I used to subscribe to the notion of Purgatory. Had we been having this conversation then, I may have suggested that those who subsisted merely on the wager would spend many lifetimes there.

On that topic: are there any Purgatory believers in the thread?

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:
I dedicated myself to reading the Bible and following what it said.

And that’s my understanding of what Pascal was actually saying in more depth than “Just believe” as it’s usually cited, especially by nonbelievers.

His position was that if someone followed the teachings and rituals of the church—reading one’s Bible, attending services, attempting to follow its teachings, and all the rest of an observant Christian—in time acceptance and belief would follow. It was, “Come to us with an open heart, see what we believe, teach, and do, and you will become one with us,” rather than, “Just believe.” I’m pretty sure I saw that transformation in one of my in-laws near the end of his life.

All that doesn’t address the question of “Which god to believe in?” but after I came to understand a fuller explanation of his position, it made rational sense as more than crass advice to simply weigh the odds based on cynical self-interest.

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Don't worry about how they did it, when they did it, or whether they were fully immersed, or whatever. If they believe Jesus was given to remit their sins, that is all it takes. It might have him them as a bolt from the blue, like Saul, or it might have come through a lifetime of slow religious observance. Neither way is better or more genuine. No one is more saved than anyone else.

I believe there absolutely nothing you can do (works) that will save you, with the exception of confessing with your mouth that Christ is the Son of God, from that point on it is between you and God. "...work out your own salvation..." and for this we must seek out wisdom

Philippians:
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

***********************************************************

...the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom...
he has the answers

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On that topic: are there any Purgatory believers in the thread?

I don't know...

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Originally posted by 12131:
I will know for sure on Judgment Day, and that is my God honest answer.

Perhaps there's some sort of penance for sins after death, but I don't know.

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Originally posted by KSGM:
… On that topic: are there any Purgatory believers in the thread?

Is there any biblical basis for it?

Concerning Pascal, his story is more interesting than just the wager thing. He claimed to have an actual vision of the Messiah (the night of fire) and he kept a writing concerning it sewn into his coat. https://storiesforpreaching.co...ations/pascals-coat/

He also differentiated between the God of creation and the god of the philosophers.

Interesting fellow.

quote:

it made rational sense as more than crass advice to simply weigh the odds based on cynical self-interest.

It certainly does. My knowledge of Pascal is limited, and I made my comments based on your (somewhat) limited initial explanation.

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Is there any biblical basis for it?

It seems nothing concrete; apparently there is an allusion to the idea in the OT. It made a lot of sense to me, as a young Catholic. Less sense now.

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Originally posted by KSGM:
I made my comments based on your (somewhat) limited initial explanation.

It's hard to know sometimes how much discussion is enough and how much is too much.
I have a tendency toward the too much and I do make an effort to avoid that.
(Yeah, yeah: It's true. )

I believe in Purgatory. I used to ski there back in the late 70’s

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:

quote:

Originally posted by mrvmax:

I would assume that is because what the Catholic Church teaches for salvation contradicts scripture by making it works and Christ.

That’s your belief, and totally ok for you to believe that.

If you actually want to dive into what the Catholic Church teaches, here’s a start: https://www.catholic.com/magaz...on/faith-and-works-0

Either way, Jesus loves you. If you truly believe that you are following him and doing what he asks, then I’m sure he will be understanding.

It will take me some time, but I will find some links to the Catholic Church teaching on this to show it is not just my opinion on it.

As far as being understanding, if we are wrong in this life, there is no “understanding” by God. Nowhere does scripture state that. Christ came the first time in peace, the next time will be in vengeance. That is why it is so important to ignore what churches teach and seek out the truth in scripture.

I have been studying the Bible for over two decades and have read through it numerous times and always study in depth. It is important for each one of us to read it ourselves and not just trust what we are told and hope for the best.

I do not write this with any ill toward anyone or any religion. I came out of a “religion” that was in error by scripture. I only found that out by studying myself.

I just want the truth to be told, there is too much misinformation that misleads many. That is why the gate to heaven is narrow and few find it.

The same God that is love is also the God that showed His judgement all throughout the Bible. We get His grace and mercy now, only those true believers will receive that after we leave this world.

Paul, John, Peter all have writings that stated who was and was not saved, there is no secret combo that reveals that. A true believer will be known by their fruits, they will be born into a newness of life, the old man passes away. They will bear the fruits of the Spirit, all the Christian characters that the Apostles list throughout their writings. The traits of a believer are not hidden. Philippians is an example, Paul talks of those within the church that are enemies of Christ and those who are the true followers (Epaphroditus and Timothy are two that he mentions). That is a short book that covers a lot of what we are talking about. Go to First John after that - he is clear on those in and out of Christ and traits of each.

We must examine ourselves and make sure our beliefs alight with what scripture teaches. There are many things in the Bible that can be debated, there are things that are not 100% clear (like Revelation). But after all my studies, the teaching on salvation is one topic that is clear. Soteriology is vital and can be understood by all that seek to know by searching it out.

mrvmax, I say this with love and genuine appreciation - you believe you are following Jesus in the best possible way, and for you that is the way.

This isn’t intended to be a doctrinal or religious debate, we are all friends here, trying to attain Heaven. Among the many, many good people here are dozens of different belief structures, and Jesus knew that would happen well before the creation of Adam and Eve.

Jesus is absolutely every quality and virtue; yes, he will come in vengeance to those who do not follow him, but he spent most of his life breaking the “rules” that observant Jews followed in order to be righteous and holy (healing on the sabbath, uncleanliness, etc).

Matthew 23:23 is a fantastic verse, as are many others. Jesus is far more forgiving of us than we can comprehend.

quote:

This isn’t intended to be a doctrinal or religious debate, we are all friends here, trying to attain Heaven. Among the many, many good people here are dozens of different belief structures, and Jesus knew that would happen well before the creation of Adam and Eve.

I absolutely believe that.
I don't think the Church (even the Catholic church ) has an exclusive path to the Father.

As an aside, I occasionally see the Joel Osteen and the Joyce Meyer types and think to myself:
Wow! What a product! Everlasting salvation! Everyone wants it! If I could sell that, I'd make a fortune!

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

As an aside, I occasionally see the Joel Osteen and the Joyce Meyer types and think to myself:
Wow! What a product! Everlasting salvation! Everyone wants it! If I could sell that, I'd make a fortune!

Throw in some "God wants you to be rich," and that is exactly what they are doing.

In the meantime, Mac McIngvale, who sells moderately priced furniture out of several giant showrooms, does more good for the city of Houston, than any three preachers. When there is a storm, Mac opens the stores, and tells anyone to come in to sleep and get a hot meal. He sends truckloads of supplies to other places that need help.

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:
mrvmax, I say this with love and genuine appreciation - you believe you are following Jesus in the best possible way, and for you that is the way.

This isn’t intended to be a doctrinal or religious debate, we are all friends here, trying to attain Heaven. Among the many, many good people here are dozens of different belief structures, and Jesus knew that would happen well before the creation of Adam and Eve.

Jesus is absolutely every quality and virtue; yes, he will come in vengeance to those who do not follow him, but he spent most of his life breaking the “rules” that observant Jews followed in order to be righteous and holy (healing on the sabbath, uncleanliness, etc).

Matthew 23:23 is a fantastic verse, as are many others. Jesus is far more forgiving of us than we can comprehend.

I do not disagree, but there are also verses like 2 Thess 1:5-11.

My point is that once we leave here, there is no more forgiveness, there is no undoing what has been done, what choices have been made. We have one shot in this life and what we do here stands for eternity. So we must get it right. the scripture you mentioned describes exactly what happened in the day that Christ walked this earth and it still happens today. He is not saying to ignore everything and love will overcome it all. Jesus commands us to obey Him, His Word that has been preserved for us.

Jesus did not heed the rules made up by the Jews. But He also never broke the commands of the Father since he perfectly fulfilled the law to be our sacrifice. The entire Old Testement showed us that we cannot uphold the laws, that we need Christ. Beginning in Genesis it pointed to Him coming as our Messiah.

Matthew 7:21-23 is a warning to those that think they have done right but did not. It is not good enough to get close, we have to be correct. Salvation, or lack thereof is eternal. It is too important to dismiss.

I do not disagree to debate, but to warn people out of my concern for people who are misled. Yes, some of the big name preachers mentioned here are misleading people. Satan uses them to accomplish his will and there day will come. There will be a reckoning. But that once again shows us how there are none righteous, not even one. From the beginning there were those who opposed God and those who followed. Nothing has changed.

1 John 5 1-3 is one of many places that describe what we should be like. Chapter 3 verses 4-10 also describe those in and out of Christ. We see over and over what true believers look like, many of the the big name preachers are not that. The beginning of Luke 17 tells them what they have coming.

Salvation transcends religion, denomination and our works. Those do not get in into heaven, the redemption offered by Christ is what does.

Our sins are going to be paid for. By each of us throughout eternity as we take on God’s wrath, or by Christ who already took on God’s wrath for those who are His.

I’ve posted enough, I will try and find the reference I said I would post and then that is it.

“May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord”.

P.S. Here is the reference, you can deny what it means but it is what it is. 2010: “we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification”
[URL=we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification]2010[/URL]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mrvmax,