No one who has ever lived can do enough good deeds or good works to work themselves into heaven. Being saved is not a license to sin, either. In fact, it is called trampling on the blood of Christ and God will visit intentional or willful sin in this life if left unchecked. And when/if that happens it is totally up to God’s discretion and righteous judgment.

It appears to be ‘logical’ that we can do works/deeds in addition to believing that Christ died for our sins for salvation. But as Jesus said on the cross he makes all things new and it is finished. The thief on the cross next to Him said to remember him when He comes into His kingdom. He had no good deeds/works to offer. He only had belief in Christ and His work on the cross.

Scripture seems pretty clear that salvation is from Grace, alone.

There’s various things indicating “rewards” for following God - definitely NOT the prosperity gospel/Osteen stuff.

Never worried about that too much. The more I work on stuff, the better I feel/the better my life is, in the ways that count.

There’s something about something I don’t even like to write, but one very specific sin which can take away grace.

And, there’s something about a special punishment for those who hurt children.

I’m a Christian. Here’s my question. I have an older cousin that lives in a residential home for mentally handicapped people. He never been verbally communicating with people his whole life. He’s not even potty trained. Do these people get into heaven. What about people that have TBIs?

^^^^^^My perspective, yes they do get into heaven.

For the record, I am a Christian and yes, I consider myself “saved“ and can remember the moment.

But I do have a problem with this whole concept. What happens when a child who has not had a chance “to be saved” dies? Is it straight to Hell for them? Wouldn’t that mean that Hell is full of children?

I also have a problem with the whole concept of The Rapture because it just does not make sense to me if you parse it all out.

IMO it’s misinterpreted Scripture.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
For the record, I am a Christian and yes, I consider myself “saved“ and can remember the moment.

But I do have a problem with this whole concept. What happens when a child who has not had a chance “to be saved” dies? Is it straight to Hell for them? Wouldn’t that mean that Hell is full of children?

I also have a problem with the whole concept of The Rapture because it just does not make sense to me if you parse it all out.

IMO it’s misinterpreted Scripture.

I agree with you in this. I’d like to also add what’s the purpose of resurrection if we all go to heaven at death.

I think these misunderstandings are due to conflating separate scriptures.

quote:

Originally posted by wrightd:

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
I was a bit confused by wrightd's post. I think he was ultimately poking fun at that particular preacher, and the question posed was rhetorical.

To address that rhetorical question: The salvation granted by Christ's death transcends the linear timeline that we know.

John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

That particular passage, for me, is very important in understanding how much of Christianity "works".

Exactly. Apologies for potential misunderstanding. To me the differences between the major Christian belief systems are minor points, and many people from all of them will do better in their afterlife compared to those who love their sin. I don't think the point of Faith in the good religions is to bicker about minors so to speak. If the Christian based faiths are supposed to argue about the differences between them in terms of the specifics of salvation based on other elements above and beyond faith and the good works that follow from it, then maybe those who do would be better served with religions that promote division, hate, domination, and execution.

A quote attributed to St. Augustine goes "In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity."

I think no one in the Christian faith has any standing to claim they have the pure unadulterated correct understanding of the Bible nor is that a requirement. Otherwise, the passage would say, “you have been saved by grace through faith AND your correct understanding of God’s Word.”

It does take wisdom to determine what are the essentials and when to contend for the faith or not in service to the greater cause.

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
For the record, I am a Christian and yes, I consider myself “saved“ and can remember the moment.

But I do have a problem with this whole concept. What happens when a child who has not had a chance “to be saved” dies? Is it straight to Hell for them? Wouldn’t that mean that Hell is full of children?

I also have a problem with the whole concept of The Rapture because it just does not make sense to me if you parse it all out.

IMO it’s misinterpreted Scripture.

I agree with you in this. I’d like to also add what’s the purpose of resurrection if we all go to heaven at death.

I think these misunderstandings are due to conflating separate scriptures.

God is a fair and just God. He is fair in His judgement of the heart with children, those who are impaired, etc.. He even tells us we need to come to Him as little children,Matthew 18:2-5, in that we must be trusting and accepting as a child is.

David in 2 Samuel 12, addresses this very thing with the death of his baby with Bathsheba, saying he will see his child again in heaven. According to this scripture, we see as it was written, children/babies will be with the Lord.

Job and King Solomon also address this with the speaking of stillborn children being at rest. They each say what is better, being stillborn and being at rest or living a fuller life. Jesus says, "come unto me all who labor and I will give you rest" Matthew 11. Rest comes with being with the Lord.

What about the babies and children who were given as sacrifices to false gods in the old testament? In Jeremiah 19, it speaks of the blood of the innocents. So God does take that into consideration with coming to Him.



As for the Rapture, there are many verses in the New Testament, and that day is coming as Jesus said He will come like a thief in the night and will return on a cloud as He left - 1 Thessalonians 5:2, Revelation 16:15,Matthew 24:43, to name a few.

We have not seen that time yet as we are still in the "Age of the Gentiles", meaning God is allowing more time for others to be saved. This is something to be happy about, more people coming to Jesus! God is not in time as we are constrained to it but exists outside of time as in the verse 2 Peter 3:8. He has a time He only knows-Matthew 24:36.

There will be signs of His return as in the Gospels- Matthew 24, Luke 21 and in Revelation. The son of perdition/anti-chirst will rise into power and the false prophet will do wondrous works in the beast's name, Revelation 12. These 2 beasts will be given power by their master-satan. It will be a scary time for those in the world, as Jesus' return will come only once not a couple of times, Matthew 24, Luke 21, Hebrews 9:28, 1 Thess. 4:16-5:2, Acts1:9-11.

Not that I am prophesying of His return but we can see some of the times now. Many in society say marriage is not necessary to have children as society can raise them and look where we are now. The "nuclear family" is frowned upon as it is actually the family God wants for us-a father and mother as was designed in Genesis.

Wars and rumors of wars. We are seeing that more and more.

Love is growing cold. Look at the senseless violence all around us now in places where we never thought about issues about people being set on fire, people laughing at others pain/misfortune, etc..

Our knowledge will increase. No other time in history is that truer than today.

God is not finished with Israel and has a covenant with her from Abraham. It is not with Christians as some believe, as there is no scripture to back that up but it is with the Jewish people in Israel. Sadly, America is not even mentioned in the Bible, looking at our leadership and liberal ideology, I am not surprised.

I found a great website that explains this and a lot of other things which uses the scripture to give us hope. There are many good websites but this one, C.A.R.M.- Christian Apologetics and Research Ministery, I have found to be great.

When in doubt, refer to the Bible as it is God's word. Don't listen to creeds, other texts, or people who speak of Christ that is not the same person as in the Bible. The scripture is where a Christian can learn about God. We should take time out of our lives and devote some time for studying the Bible, as that is how we will know God's way/His path for us and not by how you personally feel or the opinions of others.

In fact, don't take my word for it. Study it for yourself. We all have access to it and there is no reason not to study it. I pray for all of us here and hope the Lord will show you the way and to put your trust/faith/hope, only in Him.

I say these things with love and not condemnation, as I am trying to take my own advice. I love how the apostle Paul gave us his examples with sin and his struggle/strife in this world. Of course his doesn't compare with Christ.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: patw,

quote:

What happens when a child who has not had a chance “to be saved” dies? Is it straight to Hell for them?

More studied folks than myself have already referred to scripture, which I agree is the undeniable way to go.

On this particular topic, I have done a little bit of prior research, as my mother cited the fate of unbaptized children as one of her primary reasons for drifting away from the Catholic church. I came across mention of Limbo, as a possible eternal destination for these particular souls. Limbo seems to be a place of varying enjoyability, in accordance with your actions in the material world. Virtuous pagans find a home in Limbo, as do unbaptized children. It can be as wonderful as the most fantastic mortal life imaginable, experienced for eternity. Sounds pretty good; but of course it pales to paradise.

All this is only if you subscribe to this particular school of thought (or belief), which I do not. It seems to be a largely Catholic construct.

The Patriarchs previously mentioned in this thread also have a home in Limbo (if you subscribe).

What do our participating Catholics have to add, on the matter of Limbo?

Much stuff on line about limbo, such as here:

https://www.reuters.com/articl...uries-idUSL20287216/

According to the articles, the Catholic church dropped the concept years ago.

Thank you, sigfreund. I am puzzled as to why my previous reading never brought me to that same (or similar) material.

I guess that's what happens when the institution fabricates stuff: It misleads folks for centuries, only to be later abandoned.

This seemed to be a decent argument about the fate of the infants.

https://faithpulpit.faith.edu/...e-who-die-in-infancy

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
I guess that's what happens when the institution fabricates stuff: It misleads folks for centuries, only to be later abandoned.

Church doctrine has never included Limbo. While some have taught it, it has never been included in formal doctrine. Likely because there is no clear answer as yet, and not for lack of debate on the subject. It makes sense that there would be a place called Limbo for those souls, just as it makes sense that Purgatory exists. I believe that the best answer is that those souls are left up to the judgement of God. He makes the rules and is the only one who can change them.

John 3:16, yes, since age 5.

quote:

Originally posted by MtCowboy:
Romans 10:9-10 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

I was raised in a Christian home and confessed/was baptized at an early age. I can’t tell you what that date/time was. I don’t have the great story of turning from drugs, crime, etc that some have who come to faith in Christ in later years. That was a concern of mine when I was younger if I had been really saved until I realized that all sin, no matter how bad we think it is, separates us from God and requires redemption.

To me, not being able to remember the date means nothing as I believe now and there is evidence of the Holy Spirit’s work in my life causing me to grow in grace and knowledge of my Saviour.

^^^^
I typically do not discuss Religion or politics. That being said I do agree with MtCowboy. John

I used to be Catholic and switched to non-denominational Christian church and got saved. I pray that everyone gets saved and repents of their sins and accepts Lord Jesus as their only Lord and Savior. God Bless !!!

quote:

Originally posted by VBVAGUY:
I used to be Catholic and switched to non-denominational Christian church and got saved. I pray that everyone gets saved and repents of their sins and accepts Lord Jesus as their only Lord and Savior. God Bless !!!

Amen,glad to hear it.

quote:

Originally posted by Tinyman:
Saved 28 July 1985 -- Baptized 11 August 1985. Was stationed at Osan AB Korea and Baptized in an off-base Korean bath house. The two verses that 'did it' for me are John 3:16 and Romans 10:13. Backslid? Occasionally but always returned to the word.

I wish I could state the date for myself, but it didn't work that way in my life. Edited/Deleted a whole bunch of my own rambling: It has been a life-long journey for me, not something that happened in a specific moment in time. I've grown and backslid many times, but I continue to have faith and strive to move forward!

Have I been saved? Yes. Am I still saved after having about 7 rough years? Yes, and I'm working on digging myself out of this hole now!

Much talk of being saved, much singing, and a focus on fellowship at yesterday's service. I agree with those with an aversion to the amount (and type) of singing found at many services nowadays. The church I attend front-loads the tunes as well, which gives the service a somewhat unbalanced feeling, when compared to something like a Catholic service, which has the songs pretty evenly dispersed and integrated. Ultimately, it's all time I can spend considering my faith, which is a good thing that I otherwise likely wouldn't do.

The theme of fellowship is one our preacher wants to focus on, moving into the new year. He wants to promote fellowship of the sort he perceives in his studies of the early church. Not BSing with your buddies in the congregation about this that or the other, but trying to make connections with folks you don't know well, or don't recognize; connections based in faith, as opposed to worldly matters.

It often feels like the service is more for the potential new guy than the majority of the returning congregation. It has been off-putting to me before, but I am growing to understand it. It's our duty to reach out and bring more folks to the church (to Christianity). As regular attendees, we need to keep our eyes peeled for the new folks, and ensure they feel welcome. As regular attendees, we are also expected to have a more mature faith, and not "require" as much out of the service, and perhaps not be bummed that it feels more for the new guy than for us. We can get much from our fellowship with other regular members, so long as the conversation is faith-based.

He said that the idea that we don't need to come to church, and experience the resulting fellowship, is a lie happily perpetuated by the devil and his agents. I suppose I tend to agree. I know some participants in this thread may not, based on some of the apparent (and understandable) distaste for church attendance.

But... This very discussion thread is fellowship! And I think a very serious one at that. A focused discussion on faith among (mostly) strangers is the fellowship my preacher would love to see in his church. A man is, in my opinion, as likely to be nudged closer to being saved reading our discussion here as he would be attending most church services. Well done, Sigforum.