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| SIGforum's Berlin Correspondent  |
This is actually one of my favorite topics: How "left" and "right" are defined throughout history. Of course the political terms only appear in the late 18th century when the pre-revolutionary French National Assembly takes over the seating order of British Parliament where the government party sits to the right of the speaker and the opposition to the left. So in France, we have the conservatives who literally want to conserve the feudalist ancien régime with the rule of the few over the many at best they can on the right, and the progressives with their ideas of liberté, egalité, fraternité on the left. At this point, the US thus is probably the most left-wing regime in the world - they give every free male a say in the makeup of the government! This is positively blasphemuous leftist extremism to the absolute monarchies of Europe which still derive the legitimation of their rulers from the Will of God. Of course once the French really get their revolution going, they quickly overtake the US on the left, and with Robbespiere we see the first great wave of left-wing terror in the modern sense. However, we also hit a paradox: Leftist extremists will usually acknowledge that to bring about their perfect societal order of individual liberty and equality, there will regrettably need to be a period of enforcing change by dictatorial means - thus again a rule of the few over the many, the very basic definition of "right". Napoleon starts out as a defender of the revolution, then embarks on a great crusade to bring its achievements of liberty, equality and the rule of law to the poor, downtrodden masses of absolutist-ruled Europe - and ends up making himself first consul-for-life, then emperor by popular acclamation; it doesn't get more right-wing than that at this time. The economic angle of left-wing politics which American conservatives are so fond of basing their whole judgement on (which I like to call para-Marxism) doesn't appear before the mid-19th century in reaction to industrialization, namely by Marx. The basic tenet of communism, to achieve individual equality by sharing the means of production among workers, doesn't really have a basis before that because there is no industry and thus no workers class (though we have small examples of communes throughout history, mostly religiously-motivated; the early Christian Church springs to mind, and non-Marxist socialist groups continue to exist). Marx also predicts this will lead to the state withering away and national divides thus ceasing to exist. We therefore have a new defining moment of the Left: internationalism versus the nationalism of the Right. Marx, too, foresees the need to bring about his perfect world by dictatorial means, but tries getting around the paradox by calling it the "dictatorship of the proletariat". Of course real-world communist rule in the 20th century turns out to be rather unproletarian in its dictatorships; again, a rule of the few over the many, quite right-wing in the original sense. While industries get nationalized, workers don't have an awful lot of individual say in them; and while there is much profession of internationalism, it is more of Napoleon's imperial type in the USSR, and later on coupled with a hefty dose of Soviet-Russian nationalism. So while the ideology is leftist, reality is arguably rather right-wing. Conversely, in Germany Hitler creates this shiny new brand of National Socialism; the latter part is a fad of the times after the downfall of the feudalist imperial system which has lead the nation into a devastating losing war, so everybody who's not a monarchist calls himself a socialist. The Nazis certainly see themselves as revolutionaries and refer to traditional conservatives as "buorgeois" and "reactionary" in the best leftist vocabulary. Their basic idea of society is the Volksgemeinschaft, wherein every Volksgenosse will be cared for by the community. Quite leftist, isn't it? There is in fact a left wing of the NSDAP centered around the Strasser brothers which dreams of a national Querfront with the communists, but they get sidelined in the late 20s as street battles rage between the Left and Right. Because in the end, Nazi ideology doesn't waste any time on pretending to strive for an utopical state of free and equal people; Hitler's idea of government is the Führerprinzip, absolutism at its purest. Where the tenet of communism is "everybody giving according to his means and been given according to his needs", National Socialism comes down to "everybody been given according to the contribution he has made" - unproductive eaters to be eradicated, particularly "life unworthy of living". There are quite socialist five-year-plans under Nazi rule of course, but they are all geared towards a war economy, not unlike in other nations of WW II; and rather than nationalizing industries, Germany keeps scrupulously paying license fees even to companies in occupied countries in the middle of the war. Which again is making no pretenses at liberating some poor downtrodden masses, but rather forcing lesser humans under the yoke of the Aryan master race - which is as nationalist as it gets. In the event, National Socialism and Communism turn out to look and act eerily alike despite being from opposite ends of the classical political spectrum; but while "true Marxists" will decry from the 60s on that "Actually Existing Socialism" has strayed from the original teachings of communism, few neo-Nazis have ever accused Hitler of compromising ideology to secure his own rule. Of course political terms remain somewhat malleable (just look at how "liberal" has been twisted 180 degrees out of phase from its clasical meaning in American usage over the last decades). However, if you define the Nazis as leftists based upon the points I cited above, it then follows that ironically the European New Right are in fact leftists, too. It's all there, the anti-establishment stance hoping to overthrow the existing governments who have "failed the people", the calls for increase of public welfare and maintenance of worker protections, etc. As noted, in Germany the AfD is competing not least with the post-communist Left Party, both sharing populist promises of social security for voters unsettled by the effects of globalization, and also the basic anti-American, pro-Russian outlook. In fact the Left's hardline parliamentary co-leader Sarah Wagenknecht has been trying to fight back against the AfD by criticizing Merkel's refugee policy. Read the interviews of Wagenknecht and AfD head Frauke Petry on Russian newssite RT and see how much they jive. It is no accident that both parties are particularly strong in East Germany which went directly from Nazi to socialist dictatorship after 1945 and wasn't exposed to Western liberal democracy for decades like the West. Because in the end this is not a question of left vs. right, but because of authoritarianism against Western liberal democracy. It's not a new story; the Western system with its concepts of individual and economic liberty has been under attack from the point it started to shape Europe after WW I, variously by nationalists and communists, and lately also by Islamists. WW II and the whole Cold War were about this, and today the main battle is between liberal and "illiberal" or "guided" democracy on the Russian pattern, which is authoritarianism with a figleaf of elections. And as before, there are fifth columnists and useful idiots in the West who either get paid and bought (the USSR and East Germany funnelled millions into the Western peace movement; today, the Front National for example is being given millions in Russian bank loans to finance their campaigns) or whipped up by propaganda about out-of-control capitalism, social injustice and their governments leading them to doom (it used to be about Western warmongers driving the world into nuclear war with the peace-loving East; today it's mostly about immigration, though the old meme is still alive, too - I even saw it pop up in regard to the US elections). That's not to say that Islamism in Europe is not a problem, and we don't need to get a better handle on immigration. But the European New Right is no more the answer to that than the Nazis claiming to save Europe from communism. Personally, I'm with OTD on this one - you'll find me in the resistance. | |||
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Sig Forum Smart-Ass |
I'm not sure what, if anything, we can do at this point for our Allies in Europe. However, what we had BETTER do is watch very closely what is happening there, learn from their mistakes, not make those same mistakes here and fix our own issues first. We can't help others until we get our own house in order. Dripping water hollows out stone, not through force, but through persistence. -Ovid NRA Life Member NRA Certified Basic Pistol Instructor | |||
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Happily Retired |
Sure it would be great if most of Europe had an election like we did in November...but I do not see it happening. If Trump gets everything fixed as he said he would, including the economy, then Europe will have a great example of what to do. Vote conservative! It's all we can and should do. .....never marry a woman who is mean to your waitress. | |||
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| Member |
So....what's the word on the street (so to speak), now that the election is upon us? Just curious. | |||
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Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie |
Well, it seems likely that after Sunday, it'll come down to Macron and Le Pen. The runoff then in May looks to be very tough for Le Pen to win, but hey, they said the same for Trump. As far as my wife, she actually landed in Paris with my daughter on Wednesday (the day before a terrorist shoots up the Champs-Élysées of course). But she is now on the west coast with her family safe and sound. Ironically, she can't vote in France for the election. She had changed her voting place to the French consulate in San Francisco not knowing at the time if she would be in France for the election. Well, December 31st was the cutoff date to change it so she's screwed. But that's all good because I don't think she was voting for Le Pen anyway, Hehe. ~Alan Acta Non Verba NRA Life Member (Patron) God, Family, Guns, Country Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan | |||
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| Member |
One of the better written and thought provoking posts in awhile. Thanks. One observation: because the Nazi regime never nationalized the industry, but directed the production and output, would that not be fascism in the economic sense? -- I always prefer reality when I can figure out what it is. JALLEN 10/18/18 https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...610094844#7610094844 | |||
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Who else? |
The blood shed will be appalling. And then war will come. | |||
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Member |
A lot of the more conservative French people we know are supporters of Fillon. His support obviously tumbled after the allegations he gave his wife a fake job. Those supporters still seem to plan to vote for him. If the second round turns out to be what you suggest (which definitely seems to be the likely scenario) I am not sure who they are voting for, but I hope it's Le Pen over Macron. As a side note, we hardly ever go to the touristy Champs Elysees, but my wife and I had the urge to try the new Five Guys that opened up there not too long ago. Our lunch date there was Thursday. It's less than a 100 feet from the shooting. Glad we were long gone by that evening. | |||
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| Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie |
One thing that should be made clear is that Le Pen is far from actually being "far right." Her economic and social issues are anything but, and in fact her positions in that regard could be considered very left of center. The "far right" label is obviously prescribed by the media and opponents of her to frighten voters and instill visions of Nazism. She's indeed a nationalist similar in ways that Trump is, and advocates for a return to a strong French first policy and identity, but she's certainly not "far right" or even just right on most issues. But in my opinion, she's what is really needed in France at this time in history. I'm not sure I convinced my wife of that though. I guess we'll find out how the rest of the country feels in the next month... ~Alan Acta Non Verba NRA Life Member (Patron) God, Family, Guns, Country Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower  |
What could go wrong is that the terrorist-loving globalist leftists remain in power and continue to betray their country and fellow countrymen, thus assuring the continued decline of the safety of the nation, which will, of course, lead to further deadly terrorist attacks. Your post sounds prettier than mine, so, you know, points for that. We're talking about reality. We are witnessing these attacks with ever greater frequency. This is not going to stop. Bending over backwards, trying to be "fair" to everyone, when a portion of those people want to kill the rest, does not work. Reality ____________________________________________________ "I am your retribution." - Donald Trump, speech at CPAC, March 4, 2023 | |||
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money  |
BansheeOne, You have beautifully laid out the political history of Europe and the United States with respect to these terms 'right' and 'left'. I encourage everyone here to read your post. It's long but insightful. You are correct: The right-left paradigm doesn't really work.
Yes, I consider myself a "Classical liberal" rather than a "right-wing conservative" in the way it has been come to be used. I believe in limited government, to protect individual and economic liberty, as the American founding promised. However that it quite difficult to maintain, isn't it? Freedom is hard because it includes the freedom to fail. People see failure of the 'underclass' and half of them scream at the government to "Do Something!" Clever politicians exploit this egalitarianism for their own gain, and slowly freedom is lost.
I think many of us on Sigforum would consider ourselves in the resistance as well. There is no political party which will forever limit the power of government to protecting individual and economic liberty. Great post! Thank you. "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money |
A Republic.... if you can keep it: Oligarchy is the most common form of government throughout history, and remains the most common form of government today. "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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| Just because you can, doesn't mean you should |
We are blessed to have an ocean on both sides and a Constitution, even if it is sometimes under attack. Under the EU, each country is more like a state is here. The national government is in Brussels, kind of like their Washington. So electing a new leader in a country is somewhat like us electing a governor. There are still EU rules and policies that are like federal laws here. They also tax and then redistribute wealth based on what they see as need. Having an extreme leader in Europe has never ended well. Le Pen is considered a far right candidate but she wants to remove all Russian sanctions and is generally very supportive of Putin. ___________________________ Avoid buying ChiCom/CCP products whenever possible. | |||
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| I believe in the principle of Due Process  |
Who goes to Paris and eats at Five Guys? Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me. When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown | |||
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| Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie |
Haha, exactly what I was thinking. ~Alan Acta Non Verba NRA Life Member (Patron) God, Family, Guns, Country Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan | |||
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| Partial dichotomy |
Me too. SIGforum: For all your needs! Imagine our influence if every gun owner in America was an NRA member! Click the box>>>  | |||
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| I believe in the principle of Due Process |
I have to admit that after spending the entire summer of 1994 in France, except side trips to Spain, Switzerland etc, I was hot to get back to American food, even to the point of trying the MacDoes. There was one in La Rochelle, and one in Niort, I believe, and my in laws refused to have anything to do with them. It may have been for the best, actually. Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me. When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower |
Did you get Le Big Mac, or did you get a Royale with Cheese? ____________________________________________________ "I am your retribution." - Donald Trump, speech at CPAC, March 4, 2023 | |||
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Drug Dealer |
Link to original video: https://youtu.be/ecc0nbg9m-8 When a thing is funny, search it carefully for a hidden truth. - George Bernard Shaw | |||
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money |
Will Marine Le Pen pull a 'Trump-like' surprise in French election? By Rick Moran In less than 24 hours, French voters will go to the polls to choose a new president. All campaigning was suspended on Friday both because of the terror attack in Paris on Thursday and election law which prevents any campaigning 48 hours before the vote. The latest polls strongly suggest that anti-immigrant, anti-terrorism candidate Marine Le Pen has benefitted slightly from the attack in Paris that killed a policeman and wounded two others. Newsweek reports that she received about a 1 point boost while the 3 other major candidates fell back a bit. She seems to have cemented her position as one of the top two candidates who will move on to the second round of presidential voting on May 7. But with a third of French voters undecided, might Le Pen experience the kind of surge of support that Donald Trump got in the last few days of the American presidential election campaign? Fox News: Newsweek found many voters saying in the run-up to Sunday's election that they were leaning towards Le Pen -- which would parallel the surge for Trump last year among undecided voters and supporters who chose to lay low. André Robert, 56, said her tough stance on terror convinced him. “I’m voting for the candidate who’ll keep us safe.” “Marine gets me shaking,” 65-year-old Monique Zaouchkevitch said, adding that she'd stayed out of politics until she heard Le Pen speak. “Marine, she’s close to the people.” In another parallel to the U.S., some voters seemed to suffer from election fatigue and weren't blown away by any of the candidates. Gabriel Roberoir, a 61-year-old former public servant, called the election a “circus,” adding, “I don’t even know why any of them are running.” Sunday's vote is the first round in the French elections, with the top two candidates advancing to a winner-take-all runoff on May 7. The high-stakes contest is viewed as something of a vote on the future of the European Union, with Le Pen calling for a referendum on France's membership in the bloc. Conservative former Prime Minister Francois Fillon, whose campaign was initially derailed by corruption allegations that his wife was paid as his parliamentary aide, also appeared to be closing the gap, as was far-leftist, Jean-Luc Melenchon. Campaigning by the 11 presidential candidates got off to a slow start, bogged down by corruption charges around once-top candidate Fillon before belatedly switching focus to France's biggest fear: a new attack. Le Pen has also echoed some of Trump's hard-line rhetoric on immigration, calling for hardening French borders to stanch what she describes as an out-of-control flow of immigrants. She has spoken of radical Muslims trying to supplant France's Judeo-Christian heritage and, among other measures, has called for foreigners suspected of extremism to be expelled from the country. Le Pen, a 48-year-old mother of three, has distanced herself from her father, National Front party founder Jean-Marie Le Pen, who has been convicted of crimes related to anti-Semitism and mocked the Holocaust as a "detail" of history. The stink of anti-Semitism on the National Front is still prevelant thanks to a media who never lets the voter forget who Le Pen's father was. But Le Pen has condemned her father's positions and most voters see her as her own candidate, unencumbered by her father's fringe past. But Le Pen committed a gaffe last month when she claimed that France had no part in rounding up Jews for Nazi Germany. In fact, Vichy France was very helpful to the Nazis in sending Jews to the death camps. The worry for her supporters today is that she is overplaying her hand when it comes to terrorism: But French political expert Bruno Cautres from the Cevipof think tank says the impact on voters will be minimal. “I don’t think it will change much at this late stage,” Cautres told The Local. “The campaign has been running for months now and most voters know the candidates they will vote for.” Cautres accepted however it could reinforce those undecided voters who were tempted to vote for either Marine Le Pen or François Fillon. The danger for Marine Le Pen is that she could face a backlash if, as she has done in the past, she tries to make political gain so soon after the distressing killing of a French policeman. “She cannot give the impression she is trying to profit from this,” Cautres said. “Candidates would have to show they are the ones who can unite French people and bring them together.” All the polls show Macron winning a runoff with Le Pen with ease. But it's still possible that Le Pen could square off against the Communist Jean-Luc Mélenchon, in which case the polls show the contest too close to call. Both are anti-EU candidates, which appeals to a large swath of younger, working class voters. In fact, the anti-EU vote could very well add up to a strong plurality on Sunday. The bottom line: Don't be surprised if Le Pen shocks the establishment with a bigger win in the first round of voting than expected. http://www.americanthinker.com...french_election.html "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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