quote:

Originally posted by corsair:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

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Originally posted by walkinghorse:

I don't recall any Marchinko books, or others back then. Not to say there were none, but I don't recall any. I doubt Marchinko was behind any, since he retired from the Navy in the late '80's.

You can't control fiction, like the Clancy stuff.

I think the books and movies started later. The first book of that kind I remember was about desert ops in WWII, British Army stuff. There may have been the odd Soldier of Fortune article, but those were pretty much fiction anyway.

Ordinarily, the bin Ladin raid would not have been publicized, certainly who was involved, but I believe Joe the Dumber couldn't control himself.

I believe (I may be wrong) popularity of SEALs first came to light with the Charlie Sheen movie, James Cameron's movie The Abyss and I believe the first popular book written by a SEAL was The Element of Surprise by Darryl Young, an account of the author's time in VN; all came out around 1990. Marcinko's book came out a few years after and because he had just completed his prison term, his 'colorful character' and the contents were relatively current, he was able to secure greater publicity while raising the profile of SEALs. Today, with JSOC awash in funding & legal cover, career pipelines are fully developed within that command, political advocates sprinkled throughout the DC landscape, their profile is a while lot different than it was for VN era guys, much less guys in the late 80's and 90's.

IIRC, Marcinko did time in the Fed pen for things he did as a SEAL. I also believe that this forfeited his Navy pension.
Sitting in the joint, not much to do, and with the prospect of not getting anything (money wise) for your service in the Navy might make you think of "How much can I get for my Memoirs?"
I also recall that some of the Community was a little upset with him for writing the book.

It was also about the time that a ton of books started to hit the market from SF, SEALS, SFOD-D... types.
Now, it seems that everyone has a book deal when they get out: SF, SEAL, RECON, Force RECON, MARSOC, ParaRescue, Snipers from all branches...

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Originally posted by walkinghorse:

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Originally posted by PPGMD:
I've always wondered if how a person typically joins SEALs vs how a person typically joins Special Forces has to do with the difference of how the communities seek publicity.

Stay with me here. In order to join the SEAL teams you really need that desire from the get go. There are few career paths in the Navy that naturally lead to the SEAL Teams. People that become SEALs more often than not join the Navy for that specific purpose.

While in the Army, even though there is an 18X path to go directly into SF. For many people it is a natural progression of the infantry career. They typically serve a few years in an infantry or a Ranger unit. And then apply to become a SF. A much smaller portion of the SF community join the Army to become a Green Beret.

Very valid point! From the reading I have done, it was mentioned more than once that in the early days of the SEAL's, most were career team members, and for the officers being in the SEAL's was not necessarily a positive for career advancement. Then the SEAL's became a ticket to punch, serve the minimum time, and then move on to career enhancing areas. I do not know if that was the same in the SF, as they seemed to be quieter about the what and why of what they do! Delta and others was even quieter, but news reports, books and movies speculated, so the public became aware, and reporters wanted the inside story, and some in the community were ready and willing to talk! It became fashionable to know the 'inside' , so politicians, thrill seekers, reality shows, etc. 'helped' us outsiders to know what was going on? Change of times, change of insiders, change of the world . Look what TV coverage of the air campaign in Gulf I did. Brought the technology and almost real time successes of air bombing results in a positive way, versus the negative of the VN. era. The generals and others were showing off their hardware, the positive results, and getting their names to be instantly recognized by the public! Then they went on to write books, and become media experts providing color and commentary. Sure the dollars offered by the media and publishers helped their decision to talk!

I don't know where you got that idea. In the old days, enlisted came from the various ratings, gunners mates, hospital corpsmen, signalmen, boatswain's mates, etc. Now there is a rating for Special Operators. They go from boot camp into Special Warfare, no A school to learn a rating.

Officers who are SEALS are rarely, if ever, found outside Special Warfare. You don't see SEAL O-5s in command of a ship, or like an aviator O-6 completing a deep draft command on the way to flag ranks. One factor is probably how few there are of them. Also they would never have picked up any training or experience in ship operations.

A passage I found just now in a book I’m reading, in reference to fighting guerrillas:

“As the state’s soldiers continue to fight weak foes, they will eventually become as ill disciplined and vicious as the people they are fighting, due to frustration and mirror imaging. For the state [nation], it will not only lose the war but also in the progress destroy the effectiveness of its army. Citizens lose their feeling of solidarity with the goals of their government when they perceive it to be acting immorally.”
The author then cites the My Lai incident in Vietnam.

— John Robb, Brave New War: The Next Stage of Terrorism and the End of Globalization (Hoboken, N.J.: John Wiley & Sons, 2007).

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Originally posted by sigfreund:
A passage I found just now in a book I’m reading, in reference to fighting guerrillas:

“As the state’s soldiers continue to fight weak foes, they will eventually become as ill disciplined and vicious as the people they are fighting, due to frustration and mirror imaging. For the state [nation], it will not only lose the war but also in the progress destroy the effectiveness of its army. Citizens lose their feeling of solidarity with the goals of their government when they perceive it to be acting immorally.”
The author then cites the My Lai incident in Vietnam.

— John Robb, Brave New War: The Next Stage of Terrorism and the End of Globalization (Hoboken, N.J.: John Wiley & Sons, 2007).

A much better way of saying what I was trying to say a couple pages back. The majority of our citizens don't want our troops pissing on dead bodies or treating them like animals. And like it or not we can not win wars that the voting public does not like.

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Originally posted by Pale Horse:
And like it or not we can not win wars that the voting public does not like.

Exactly.

Navy SEAL's book on the bin Laden killing shows the real reason photos of the body were never released

Business Insider
Paul Szoldra
May 2, 2017

The man who claims he was the SEAL Team 6 operator who shot Osama bin Laden in 2011 has written a new book, and his retelling of that raid shows the reason photos of the terrorist leader's body were never released.

The book, "The Operator" by Robert O'Neill, recounts the former Navy chief's career spanning 400 missions, though his role with the elite SEAL team's raid on bin Laden's compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, has become his most consequential. The sixth anniversary of that raid is Tuesday.

According to O'Neill, he was walking behind his fellow SEALs as they searched bin Laden's three-story compound. Upstairs, they could roughly make out bin Laden's son Khalid, who had an AK-47.

"Khalid, come here," the SEALs whispered to him. He poked his head out and was shot in the face.

An unnamed point man and O'Neill proceeded up to the third floor. After they burst into bin Laden's bedroom, the point man tackled two women, thinking they might have suicide vests, as O'Neill fired at the Qaeda founder.

"In less than a second, I aimed above the woman's right shoulder and pulled the trigger twice," he wrote, according to the New York Daily News. "Bin Laden's head split open, and he dropped. I put another bullet in his head. Insurance."

There is some dispute over who fired the fatal shots, but most accounts are that O'Neill shot bin Laden in the head at some point. According to a deeply reported article in The Intercept , O'Neill "canoed" the head of bin Laden, delivering a series of shots that split open his forehead into a V shape.

O'Neill's book says the operators had to press bin Laden's head back together to take identifying photos. But that wasn't the end of the mutilation of bin Laden's body, according to Jack Murphy of SOFREP, a special-operations news website.

Two sources told Murphy in 2016 that several SEALs took turns dumping round after round into bin Laden's body, which ended up having more than 100 bullet holes in it.

Murphy, a former Army Ranger, called it "beyond excessive."

"The picture itself would likely cause an international scandal, and investigations would be conducted which could uncover other operations, activities which many will do anything to keep buried," he wrote.

After bin Laden's body was taken back to Afghanistan for full identification, it was transported to the USS Carl Vinson (CVN-70) for burial at sea. Somewhere in the Arabian Sea on May 2, 2011, a military officer read prepared religious remarks, and bin Laden's body was slid into the sea.

The Defense Department has said it couldn't locate photos or video of the event, according to emails obtained in 2012 by The Associated Press.

Link

So they gave him the Hitler ending from Inglorious Bastards? Fine with me.

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a military officer read prepared religious remarks, and bin Laden's body was slid into the sea.

Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub, then fed to sharks.

I got more than 3000 hard and 6000 lesser reasons to have no problem with that.

"For God and Country... Geronimo."

And I hope they shoved a ham sandwich up his ass before they threw him off the fantail. Regards 18DAI

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Originally posted by sigmonkey:
I got more than 3000 hard and 6000 lesser reasons to have no problem with that.

"For God and Country... Geronimo."

It isn't so much about what is done to the terrorist...but what it does to the operator who commits these acts.

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Originally posted by walkinghorse:
Though I am not aware of DELTA ones though I'm sure something is out there.

Pete Blaber wrote 'The Men, The Mission, and Me'. He is now persona non grata in the SOF community. It's a good book.

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Originally posted by Strambo:

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Originally posted by sigmonkey:
I got more than 3000 hard and 6000 lesser reasons to have no problem with that.

"For God and Country... Geronimo."

It isn't so much about what is done to the terrorist...but what it does to the operator who commits these acts.

Everyman makes a choice. Then he chooses how he lives with it.
The choice is made well before the action. Or should be.