quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:


After sentience has left, the corpse is no longer the person.

Well, that would seem to be a matter of opinion. Though I tend to agree that the body is just a vessel, I'd still have a hard time coming to terms with witnessing the skull of a loved one being crushed in with a boot heel even if he or she were already dead...

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:
Someone please explain how to kill another human without desecrating the body of the person killed.

If you think you can, you've never seen the body of a person killed by asphyxiation, blunt trauma, or exsanguination or had someone literally die under yours hands as you tried to save them.

After sentience has left, the corpse is no longer the person.

Do you remember the images of American soldiers' bodies being dragged through the streets of Mogadishu? That's desecration.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by mrvmax:
There are stories written about Luttrell and how he lied about the events in his book. Whether you believe it or not some of it sounds plausible and makes one question his account. Which service member do you believe on the account? Who knows but these guys need to go back to keeping what they do secret and stop trying to advance themselves financially from their actual ops while they were working by for Uncle Sam. I see no problem with using their experience to make a living but one guy makes some money and they come out of the woodwork trying to cash in.

I believe that Axelson, Dietz, and Mike Murphy were heroes. The rest is inconsequential.

But, it isn't that I'm a pro SEAL. I think that Gary Gordon and Randy Shugart are heroes. And every other guy that served in Special Ops at a high level honorably.

I get tired of the "bad apples" analogy, as it is way over used. There are thousands of guys out there that aren't accused of doing shit, and they shouldn't be tarnished by these unconfirmed allegations.

What do you consider not confirmed? You have different people telling different accounts and they contradict. The Marine that rescued him states he had multiple full mags and he says he didn't. You'll never know who is telling the truth and who isn't, there is no way to confirm. Whether anyone likes it or not, when you write a book about the facts there will always be others disputing those facts. If he didn't want anyone disputing he should have kept quiet and let them be celebrated as heroes for dying while serving but that was not his choice, he felt he needed to write a book about it. I don't know who to believe and I really do not care - I am grateful for those who has given life and health to keep us free. What exactly they did or how they did it is if no consequence to me, I am still grateful for their sacrifice.

quote:

Originally posted by bigwagon:

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:
Someone please explain how to kill another human without desecrating the body of the person killed.

If you think you can, you've never seen the body of a person killed by asphyxiation, blunt trauma, or exsanguination or had someone literally die under yours hands as you tried to save them.

After sentience has left, the corpse is no longer the person.

Do you remember the images of American soldiers' bodies being dragged through the streets of Mogadishu? That's desecration.

Or the black water contractors killed, mutilated, then strung up on a bridge in fallujah.

quote:

Originally posted by mrvmax:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by mrvmax:
There are stories written about Luttrell and how he lied about the events in his book. Whether you believe it or not some of it sounds plausible and makes one question his account. Which service member do you believe on the account? Who knows but these guys need to go back to keeping what they do secret and stop trying to advance themselves financially from their actual ops while they were working by for Uncle Sam. I see no problem with using their experience to make a living but one guy makes some money and they come out of the woodwork trying to cash in.

I believe that Axelson, Dietz, and Mike Murphy were heroes. The rest is inconsequential.

But, it isn't that I'm a pro SEAL. I think that Gary Gordon and Randy Shugart are heroes. And every other guy that served in Special Ops at a high level honorably.

I get tired of the "bad apples" analogy, as it is way over used. There are thousands of guys out there that aren't accused of doing shit, and they shouldn't be tarnished by these unconfirmed allegations.

What do you consider not confirmed? You have different people telling different accounts and they contradict. The Marine that rescued him states he had multiple full mags and he says he didn't. You'll never know who is telling the truth and who isn't, there is no way to confirm. Whether anyone likes it or not, when you write a book about the facts there will always be others disputing those facts. If he didn't want anyone disputing he should have kept quiet and let them be celebrated as heroes for dying while serving but that was not his choice, he felt he needed to write a book about it. I don't know who to believe and I really do not care - I am grateful for those who has given life and health to keep us free. What exactly they did or how they did it is if no consequence to me, I am still grateful for their sacrifice.

I'm in complete agreement.

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:

quote:

Originally posted by spunk639:
I'm of the school fuck the jihadi scalp him, chop him, I don't give a rats ass what happens to them.

This attitude is why we have such a hard time winning counterinsurgency warfare.

Islam is pretty strict about keeping the body whole whenever possible. Yes they desecrate our people's remains in some cases, but they aren't trying to win over us. But we OTOH are trying to win over the locals, and any sort of desecration beyond what is required for identification likely isn't going to help things.

While I totally agree with you if this was a classic LIC, it's not, we will never win them over.

This is an all out war and most of the world has not realized it.

They should fear us....Hiroshima anyone?

That being said, they did these things out of anger and a general jaded attitude towards death and killing.....which does happen to some who see and deal it daily. That is a breakdown that should not be tolerated as it can effect unit effectiveness.

quote:

I do not care. Kill them all, piss on them, and shove bacon grease up their asses. Then light them on fire.

You know that line from Austin Powers

'promiscuous sex with many anonymous partners while at the same time experimenting with mind-expanding drugs in a consequence-free environment'

quote:

I see references to the "Chain of Command" and agree with the failure of leadership being the cause for continued misconduct in a unit.

Part of the problem with that is NSW is VERY informal - Os and Es train and party together, call each other by first names in all but the most formal of circumstances. And since the Es stay in units / stay 'operational', the respect for the Os is diminished, at least from my view as an observing third party.

In general, the SEALS have the biggest egos and don't take criticism well (at all). Throw the lack of clear COC and discipline, and the stories relayed here and what I've heard from other sources don't surprise me at all.

When people in positions of responsibility aren't held accountable, then they start to go off the Res. It is human nature.

These men go through incredible stress, exposed to violence and horror on a scale unimaginable to most, lose friends. They go "once more unto the breach" over and over and over, and it takes it toll.

The issue isn't just that the enemy are being disfigured or even killed instead of captured/interrogated, it is mainly a question of what is happening to these men who we ask to go into harm's way on our behalf.

Are they still motivated by a dedication to God and Country, or out of revenge? or just misanthropic rage? is it corrupting their ideals and morals to a point where they feel they are no longer bound to respect laws and regulations?

If they are no longer held accountable for such actions, what is the next set of laws they are no longer restrained by?

What is too far?
Do they start raping the women of the men they kill?
Do they start making GoPro movies and selling them on the dark web for bitcoins?
Do they start threatening anybody who tries to hold them accountable?

Does DevGru just start to become some fucked fraternity where guys do their time, flaunt the rules, commit atrocities, then get out with a six-figure book deal?

You ever watch that Nat Geo or Discovery show about Game Wardens? You ever notice the high degree of overlap between poachers and illegal drug use? If people start to do wrong in one area of their life, why would they feel the need to refrain from such things in other areas of their life?

Would you hire an accountant to balance your books if you knew he cheated on his wife, used drugs, and had a burgeoning gambling problem? Would you expect this prospective employee to be a trustworthy book-keeper?

We can't expect to turn a blind eye to them doing things that are despicable, then expect them just to turn it off when they get into 'normal' life.

If we had a friend or family member that was going down the wrong path, would we just ignore it and hope for the best, or do we have a responsibility to try and get them to understand what we see as a serious mistake?

quote:

But, I agree; we cannot ask these people to kill for us and then condemn their practices.

The other side of the coin is do we want them to get their jollies by committing such acts, then justifying it by saying they do such things on our behalf?

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:

quote:

This attitude is why we have such a hard time winning counterinsurgency warfare.

It's equally true that an over abundance of your attitude is why we never, truly, win anything, and an over abundance is exactly what we have and have had for a long time.

BTW, I didn't mean *your* in some snarky or personal manner, PPG. It reads worse / more personal than I meant it, upon second look. I take issue with the idea. No drama w you.

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:

quote:

This attitude is why we have such a hard time winning counterinsurgency warfare.

It's equally true that an over abundance of your attitude is why we never, truly, win anything, and an over abundance is exactly what we have and have had for a long time.

BTW, I didn't mean *your* in some snarky or personal manner, PPG. It reads worse / more personal than I meant it, upon second look. I take issue with the idea. No drama w you.

I'm not against killing the enemy. RhinoWSO probably represents my position close enough.

We should be killing our enemies so much that we are stacking them up like cordwood.

That doesn't mean we need to go scalping them, or otherwise desecrating their corpses. Nor do should we be killing innocent people when we can avoid it.

There is a line in warfare, and we should have the moral fortitude to stay on the right side of it.

But that doesn't mean I am condemning all of DEVGRU, these acts if they happened, were likely committed by people that are the exception not the rule.

Great discussion.

JAllen mentions the VN war era. Isn't this when Marchinko, Doc Watson, and others first started with the books about the SEAL's? Then Ventura did his book(s) that started the controversy about the difference between SEAL or UDT? Others I'm sure but these books started the publicity game and I have no idea concerning their profitability, but it seems the door was opened and money being made! The media has jumped in so everyone wants tell their story, and it seems there is money to be made! Hard to keep the horse in the barn after the door was opened! CIA exposes, FBI exposes, Ranger stories by ex's, though I am not aware of DELTA ones though I'm sure something is out there. Tom Clancy added to the fuel though his was mostly fiction based upon 'fact' from his stories. Maybe there needs to be consequences to outing your military actions, especially if SOF type actions, but in todays world not sure if the cat can be put back in the bag, as the generals, admirals, and civilian minders sensational everything they heard, did, or think they did for personal or political gain. You know pictures of the beast, the pretender, and others, expressing their feelings while watching the SEALSin realtime on the osama mission in Pakistan. Maybe that real time video and pictures should be limited to all but the actual military unit commanders until afterwards? But that cat is out of the bag also in todays world. Maybe President Trump will improve that also!

The article had a quite a few details about who and how OBL was plinked.
An we have been discussing revenge as a motivation for killing.
For comparison:
During WWII, we had cracked the Japanese communications codes. We learned a high ranking Jap admiral was flying between Jap bases on an inspection tour. A flight of P38s was assembled and flew a great distance to intercept the officer. The intercept was successful and it is not too much of a stretch to assume the admiral watched his escorting fighters being shot down before he too was shot down. His plane crashed into the jungle and IIRC, is still there. Good chance lots of the admiral's troops saw this happen too.
The admirals name? Isoruko Yamamoto.
The planner of our other sneak attack, Pearl Harbor.
The only difference between the two operations is one occurred during our last "good" war.
We have been in the revenge business for quite a while.

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
The article had a quite a few details about who and how OBL was plinked.
An we have been discussing revenge as a motivation for killing.
For comparison:
During WWII, we had cracked the Japanese communications codes. We learned a high ranking Jap admiral was flying between Jap bases on an inspection tour. A flight of P38s was assembled and flew a great distance to intercept the officer. The intercept was successful and it is not too much of a stretch to assume the admiral watched his escorting fighters being shot down before he too was shot down. His plane crashed into the jungle and IIRC, is still there. Good chance lots of the admiral's troops saw this happen too.
The admirals name? Isoruko Yamamoto.
The planner of our other sneak attack, Pearl Harbor.
The only difference between the two operations is one occurred during our last "good" war.
We have been in the revenge business for quite a while.

It's interesting that you mention that mission, Operation Vengeance, especially in this context, because like the killing of OBL it was also the subject of post-event controversy over who shot down the plane. Two pilots claimed the kill and the investigations and squabbling over who got credit and medals for it carried on into the 1990s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Vengeance

quote:

Originally posted by walkinghorse:
JAllen mentions the VN war era. Isn't this when Marchinko, Doc Watson, and others first started with the books about the SEAL's? Then Ventura did his book(s) that started the controversy about the difference between SEAL or UDT? Others I'm sure but these books started the publicity game and I have no idea concerning their profitability, but it seems the door was opened and money being made! The media has jumped in so everyone wants tell their story, and it seems there is money to be made! Hard to keep the horse in the barn after the door was opened! CIA exposes, FBI exposes, Ranger stories by ex's, though I am not aware of DELTA ones though I'm sure something is out there. Tom Clancy added to the fuel though his was mostly fiction based upon 'fact' from his stories. Maybe there needs to be consequences to outing your military actions, especially if SOF type actions, but in todays world not sure if the cat can be put back in the bag, as the generals, admirals, and civilian minders sensational everything they heard, did, or think they did for personal or political gain. You know pictures of the beast, the pretender, and others, expressing their feelings while watching the SEALSin realtime on the osama mission in Pakistan. Maybe that real time video and pictures should be limited to all but the actual military unit commanders until afterwards? But that cat is out of the bag also in todays world. Maybe President Trump will improve that also!

I don't recall any Marchinko books, or others back then. Not to say there were none, but I don't recall any. I doubt Marchinko was behind any, since he retired from the Navy in the late '80's.

You can't control fiction, like the Clancy stuff.

I think the books and movies started later. The first book of that kind I remember was about desert ops in WWII, British Army stuff. There may have been the odd Soldier of Fortune article, but those were pretty much fiction anyway.

Ordinarily, the bin Ladin raid would not have been publicized, certainly who was involved, but I believe Joe the Dumber couldn't control himself.

JAllen, I apologize, I misstated my position. I believe Marchinko's first book was in the early 90's, but was based upon his experiences in VN, then went into semi fictional about his experiences with Seal Team 6 and fighting the Navy establishment about his style of commanding Team 6 and where that went. Rocked the boat and got rocked back. Watson' s book was about his Seal experiences in VN, and others came about the same time. My misstated point was some Seal's were coming out of not talking publicly out what went on in the teams, and this has seemed to expand now.
A friend of the family was in UDT WW II hrough the mid 50's, and everyone commented he told no war stories. In college in the 60's, a man I know was a SF Captain and was back in college for advanced degrees on behest of the Army. He was one of my instructors in skydiving, and we both shared an interest in unusual firearms, so spent time at the dump shooting some different things he had collected. He did not talk to outsiders about his experiences, though he took me through SF school at Fort Bragg that outsiders were permitted to see. The construction company I worked for built the new at the time JFK Special Warfare Center at Fort Bragg. SF did not talk to outsiders! My BIL is a retired Marine, VN tours, intelligence during and afterwards through the first Gulf War. He was recalled several times, he does not talk to outsiders. The times I have been with him and others of his community were present, there was limited discussion about what was said when I was there. The talking seems to be more prevalent now and in recent past. Sorry for the confusion from me.

quote:

Originally posted by walkinghorse:
JAllen, I apologize, I misstated my position. I believe Marchinko's first book was in the early 90's, but was based upon his experiences in VN, then went into semi fictional about his experiences with Seal Team 6 and fighting the Navy establishment about his style of commanding Team 6 and where that went. Rocked the boat and got rocked back. Watson' s book was about his Seal experiences in VN, and others came about the same time. My misstated point was some Seal's were coming out of not talking publicly out what went on in the teams, and this has seemed to expand now.
A friend of the family was in UDT WW II hrough the mid 50's, and everyone commented he told no war stories. In college in the 60's, a man I know was a SF Captain and was back in college for advanced degrees on behest of the Army. He was one of my instructors in skydiving, and we both shared an interest in unusual firearms, so spent time at the dump shooting some different things he had collected. He did not talk to outsiders about his experiences, though he took me through SF school at Fort Bragg that outsiders were permitted to see. The construction company I worked for built the new at the time JFK Special Warfare Center at Fort Bragg. SF did not talk to outsiders! My BIL is a retired Marine, VN tours, intelligence during and afterwards through the first Gulf War. He was recalled several times, he does not talk to outsiders. The times I have been with him and others of his community were present, there was limited discussion about what was said when I was there. The talking seems to be more prevalent now and in recent past. Sorry for the confusion from me.

This is exactly my experience with the team guys I knew. At the parties, the few I was allowed to attend, there might be veiled references to "that time we went out to find so and so, Don tripped on a rock, spilled his gear and we spent an hour crawling around in the dark looking for.... " type stories.

One of the guys I knew pretty well ends up getting a long delayed medal for some really hairy sounding op, nobody ever heard about it, he gets this medal so some details are mentioned and after that like it never even happened.

Now there is money in it, I guess. Maybe it's like the Mob. The old guys knew that attention meant unwanted heat. The young guys don't care so much.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by walkinghorse:
JAllen mentions the VN war era. Isn't this when Marchinko, Doc Watson, and others first started with the books about the SEAL's? Then Ventura did his book(s) that started the controversy about the difference between SEAL or UDT? Others I'm sure but these books started the publicity game and I have no idea concerning their profitability, but it seems the door was opened and money being made! The media has jumped in so everyone wants tell their story, and it seems there is money to be made! Hard to keep the horse in the barn after the door was opened! CIA exposes, FBI exposes, Ranger stories by ex's, though I am not aware of DELTA ones though I'm sure something is out there. Tom Clancy added to the fuel though his was mostly fiction based upon 'fact' from his stories. Maybe there needs to be consequences to outing your military actions, especially if SOF type actions, but in todays world not sure if the cat can be put back in the bag, as the generals, admirals, and civilian minders sensational everything they heard, did, or think they did for personal or political gain. You know pictures of the beast, the pretender, and others, expressing their feelings while watching the SEALSin realtime on the osama mission in Pakistan. Maybe that real time video and pictures should be limited to all but the actual military unit commanders until afterwards? But that cat is out of the bag also in todays world. Maybe President Trump will improve that also!

I don't recall any Marchinko books, or others back then. Not to say there were none, but I don't recall any. I doubt Marchinko was behind any, since he retired from the Navy in the late '80's.

You can't control fiction, like the Clancy stuff.

I think the books and movies started later. The first book of that kind I remember was about desert ops in WWII, British Army stuff. There may have been the odd Soldier of Fortune article, but those were pretty much fiction anyway.

Ordinarily, the bin Ladin raid would not have been publicized, certainly who was involved, but I believe Joe the Dumber couldn't control himself.

I believe (I may be wrong) popularity of SEALs first came to light with the Charlie Sheen movie, James Cameron's movie The Abyss and I believe the first popular book written by a SEAL was The Element of Surprise by Darryl Young, an account of the author's time in VN; all came out around 1990. Marcinko's book came out a few years after and because he had just completed his prison term, his 'colorful character' and the contents were relatively current, he was able to secure greater publicity while raising the profile of SEALs. Today, with JSOC awash in funding & legal cover, career pipelines are fully developed within that command, political advocates sprinkled throughout the DC landscape, their profile is a while lot different than it was for VN era guys, much less guys in the late 80's and 90's.

I've always wondered if how a person typically joins SEALs vs how a person typically joins Special Forces has to do with the difference of how the communities seek publicity.

Stay with me here. In order to join the SEAL teams you really need that desire from the get go. There are few career paths in the Navy that naturally lead to the SEAL Teams. People that become SEALs more often than not join the Navy for that specific purpose.

While in the Army, even though there is an 18X path to go directly into SF. For many people it is a natural progression of the infantry career. They typically serve a few years in an infantry or a Ranger unit. And then apply to become a SF. A much smaller portion of the SF community join the Army to become a Green Beret.

Rogue Warrior by Richard
Marcinko was published in 1993.

As far as mutilating dead Isis members? I'm not loosing any sleep over that.

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:
I've always wondered if how a person typically joins SEALs vs how a person typically joins Special Forces has to do with the difference of how the communities seek publicity.

Stay with me here. In order to join the SEAL teams you really need that desire from the get go. There are few career paths in the Navy that naturally lead to the SEAL Teams. People that become SEALs more often than not join the Navy for that specific purpose.

While in the Army, even though there is an 18X path to go directly into SF. For many people it is a natural progression of the infantry career. They typically serve a few years in an infantry or a Ranger unit. And then apply to become a SF. A much smaller portion of the SF community join the Army to become a Green Beret.

Very valid point! From the reading I have done, it was mentioned more than once that in the early days of the SEAL's, most were career team members, and for the officers being in the SEAL's was not necessarily a positive for career advancement. Then the SEAL's became a ticket to punch, serve the minimum time, and then move on to career enhancing areas. I do not know if that was the same in the SF, as they seemed to be quieter about the what and why of what they do! Delta and others was even quieter, but news reports, books and movies speculated, so the public became aware, and reporters wanted the inside story, and some in the community were ready and willing to talk! It became fashionable to know the 'inside' , so politicians, thrill seekers, reality shows, etc. 'helped' us outsiders to know what was going on? Change of times, change of insiders, change of the world . Look what TV coverage of the air campaign in Gulf I did. Brought the technology and almost real time successes of air bombing results in a positive way, versus the negative of the VN. era. The generals and others were showing off their hardware, the positive results, and getting their names to be instantly recognized by the public! Then they went on to write books, and become media experts providing color and commentary. Sure the dollars offered by the media and publishers helped their decision to talk!