Unfortunately, names were named and it's ugly. Spent time with a number of SOF guys at the recent OR show when this article was released and the poo is hitting the fan back East. Can only imagine the scuttlebutt at SHOT this year. Leadership has always been an issue for NSW, especially in the small talk amongst other SOF units, this only gives more validation to them. Very unfortunate this is been pushed out into the public...

The Crimes of SEAL Team 6

quote:

Officially known as the Naval Special Warfare Development Group, SEAL Team 6 is today the most celebrated of the U.S. military’s special mission units. But hidden behind the heroic narratives is a darker, more troubling story of “revenge ops,” unjustified killings, mutilations, and other atrocities — a pattern of criminal violence that emerged soon after the Afghan war began and was tolerated and covered up by the command’s leadership.

1. THE WEDDING PARTY MASSACRE

ON THE AFTERNOON of March 6, 2002, Lt. Cmdr. Vic Hyder and more than two dozen operators from SEAL Team 6 boarded two Chinook helicopters en route to eastern Afghanistan hoping that within hours, they would kill or capture Osama bin Laden.
Earlier that evening, general officers from the Joint Special Operations Command had scrambled the SEALs after watching a Predator drone video feed of a man they suspected was bin Laden set off in a convoy of three or four vehicles in the Shah-i-Kot Valley, where al Qaeda forces had fortified themselves. Although the video had revealed no weapons, and the generals had only tenuous intelligence that the convoy was al Qaeda — just suspicions based on the color of the man’s flowing white garb and the deference others showed him — they were nervous that bin Laden might get away again, as he had a few months earlier after the bombing of the Tora Bora mountains in December 2001. This was a crucial moment: Kill bin Laden now and the war could be over after only six months. The vehicles were headed east toward the Pakistani border, as if they were trying to escape. The mission was code-named Objective Bull.

....

I am not familiar with war. The members of any US Special Forces group need not apologize for anything.

We train these men to be warriors in the truest sense of the word...to go into harms way for our families and our way of life. They face an enemy that is far more brutal than what anyone reading an article on a damn computer screen can even begin to comprehend.

My concern lies with not what was done but how we can serve these men upon their return to bring them back to a semblance of normal life.

Meh, when it comes to combatting war criminals the rules of war don't exist. You can't get in a street fight playing by the Marquis of Queensbury rules.

The Intercept?

Sounds legit.

The "article" reads more like a novel than an investigative article IMHO.

We also have been contracting out to PMC (e.g. State, DoD, etc.) for a very long time (Christopher Columbus was PMC for the Queen of Spain) so that we can do business with "question characters" as needed. I mention this because the realities of war are not what is broadcast on TV nor presented to you by our most recent CIC's

This was very true of Afghanistan immediately after 9/11. State wanted plausible deniability so they hired Eric Prince and colleagues to negotiate/gain intel on the situation via some very dangerous, not-squeaky-clean dudes riding horses in the local hills. The people we had to engage are not your diplomatic types ...

Sometimes we have to deal with some rough people and do things to get what's needed, done. War and the World at large isn't the cuddly peace-ball King Put Obummer wanted to tell us it was, nor did that whole lead-from-behind while apologizing for our greatness worked out so well.

We're in a real farggin' mess right now and it's time to learn forward folks. Think Poland/Russia/Europe, China/Taiwan, North Korea, Philippines, and now Japan, the entire M.E. (Syria, Iraq, Iran down to Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc.), Pakistan/India then of course there is Africa, and lastly Central and South America. True shitball of massive instability and potential for war more than ever. Who cares about 2002?

quote:

Originally posted by OcCurt:
The Intercept?

Sounds legit.

Yeah, I agree.

Maybe I'm completely ignorant (actually, I know I am), but I don't feel the need or right to judge these men. Not only am I not a SEAL, I'm not even a veteran of any sort.

Interesting read for sure, but who am I to say anything except God Bless these men for sacrificing more than I can imagine.

Some jerk with an agenda. Can you imagine these armchair generals making rules of engagement during WW II? We would be speaking Japanese right now.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
Some jerk with an agenda. Can you imagine these armchair generals making rules of engagement during WW II? We would be speaking Japanese right now.

We didn't tolerate war crimes during WWII either. Sure some might have happened, but the ones that were reported were investigated and punished if there was evidence.

Just because you enemy does barbaric actions doesn't mean that we sink to their level. Sure we kill them, but it ends at killing.

Swing and a miss.

quote:

Originally posted by OcCurt:
The Intercept?

Sounds legit.

Sofrep Radio (which is run by all SEAL and tier 1 guys) has talked about this, which lends some credibility in my opinion... With that being said, I have a hard time asking these guys to kill on our behalf, then judging and condemning them for the way they do it.

When it comes to killing terrorists, or capturing them and extracting information, I literally don't care what they do. There are no limits as far as i am concerned.

While I disagree that we have no place to judge them at all what I read in the article doesn't bother me in the slightest.

One guy goes on a rampage and rapes a bunch of women? Yeah I'd be fine judging that guy. A guy kicks a corpses head in after his teammates corpse was nearly beheaded by a savage? Whatever. I'm not going to condone it but I really don't care.

quote:

Originally posted by cmr076:

quote:

Originally posted by OcCurt:
The Intercept?

Sounds legit.

Sofrep Radio (which is run by all SEAL and tier 1 guys) has talked about this, which lends some credibility in my opinion... With that being said, I have a hard time asking these guys to kill on our behalf, then judging and condemning them for the way they do it.

They have been talking for some time that "this" might come out. Never went into specifics, but I'm assuming this is part of what they were talking about. It's been a while since I've listened to the Podcast so maybe they've gotten deeper into some of this.

Two thing they got right (for certain), is the rules don't apply to NSW and the Frogmen like to write books these days.

I've met several of the people mentioned but don't know them more than passing - although the hatchet stuff has been floating around for quite some time.

Warriors or lawyers. Who do you want fighting beside you? I don't condone atrocities, IF they truly occurred. But, I agree; we cannot ask these people to kill for us and then condemn their practices.

RMD

If any man is unwilling to bloody his hands, and allows another to go in his stead, his voice of argument goes with him.

quote:

Originally posted by cmr076:

quote:

Originally posted by OcCurt:
The Intercept?

Sounds legit.

Sofrep Radio (which is run by all SEAL and tier 1 guys) has talked about this, which lends some credibility in my opinion... With that being said, I have a hard time asking these guys to kill on our behalf, then judging and condemning them for the way they do it.

That is run by Brandon Webb who is a self promoter par excellence. He had some questionable stuff going on a few years back.

Traditionally, the teams were very shy about publicity. The team spaces at the Amphib Base when I was there didn't even have signs. If you didn't know who they were, you wouldn't know who they were. That attitude held for decades, and I believe still does among the older ones.

I recall my bil saying the ideal standard was an op that nobody knew you'd been anywhere around. Sneak in, grab whatever it was you had been sent to get, and disappear, like it never even happened. If you had to fire your weapon, something had really been FUBARed.

The old SEALs called it "pimping the Budweisser" which was especially disfavored. Now guys are wearing the Tridents (as they are now called) on their suit jackets, and seldom miss a chance to show off, write books, appear on TV, do movie deals, start businesses promoting their status. It was part of the deal that you did not expect, and certainly did not seek, recognition for your activities, avoided it, actually.

In the minds of many, that poses a threat to their mission and effectiveness. Completing the op as ordered, as quietly as possible, was the only consideration. Now, you have to worry about what you wear, what you carry, who you are with, what you say, so you come off ok in the book and movie later, or in the investigation. There are certainly many stories, spellbinding, heroic, fascinating about many of their activities, but they ought not be told.

Worse, since everything is secret, there is ordinarily no satisfactory way to corroborate, verify, test, their assertions.

Look at the literature so far. One guy writes a book that turns out is substantially fiction. Another writes a book that contradicts it, and it might as well be fiction, or "made for TV" so there is a third version of the actual straight skinny. Chris Kyle and Jesse Ventura seem to have been in a lying contest. What about Marcus Lattrell? Is his story true, accurate, edited for marketing purposes? One has to wonder.