quote:

Originally posted by bald1:

quote:

Originally posted by kimber1911:
Believe last successful attack beyond eyeball distance was the USS Stark, and that was supposedly friendly fire.

"friendly fire"? How are two Iraqi Exocet missles friendly fire during the Iran-Iraq war?

The Exocet missile was made in France, which some people consider friendly, but other consider rude and snobby. However "rude and snobby fire" sounds funny.

McCain was probably at the helm and Gabby Giffords was watch officer...

what a clucter

Marine Traffic data point:
about 3.5 hours before the collision, ALNIC MC was doing 11.3 kn w 8.5 m draft




ALNIC MC Exnames are Navig8 Stealth S.V., Tandara Spirit, Helcion. Launch Name was Helcion

Dam, I am sad to hear sailor's are lost.

US Navy collisions stoke cyber threat concerns

The Pentagon won’t yet say how the USS John S. McCain was rammed by an oil tanker near Singapore, but red flags are flying as the Navy’s decades-old reliance on electronic guidance systems increasing looks like another target of cyberattack.

The incident – the fourth involving a Seventh Fleet warship this year – occurred near the Strait of Malacca, a crowded 1.7-mile-wide waterway that connects the Indian Ocean and the South China Sea and accounts for roughly 25 percent of global shipping.

“When you are going through the Strait of Malacca, you can’t tell me that a Navy destroyer doesn’t have a full navigation team going with full lookouts on every wing and extra people on radar,” said Jeff Stutzman, chief intelligence officer at Wapack Labs, a New Boston, New Hampshire, cyber intelligence service.

“There’s something more than just human error going on because there would have been a lot of humans to be checks and balances,” said Stutzman, a former information warfare specialist in the Navy.


Ten American sailors are still missing.

Chief of Naval Operations, Adm. John Richardson, did not rule out cyber intrusion or sabotage as a cause of the fatal collision. “No indications right now ... but review will consider all possibilities,” Richardson said in a tweet on Monday.

2 clarify Re: possibility of cyber intrusion or sabotage, no indications right now...but review will consider all possibilities

— Adm. John Richardson (@CNORichardson) August 21, 2017
It’s not the first time the Navy has suffered such an accident.

On Jan. 31, a guided missile cruiser, the USS Antietam, ran aground off the coast of Japan. On May 9, another cruiser, USS Lake Champlain, was struck by a South Korean fishing vessel.

In the wee hours of June 17, a destroyer, the USS Fitzgerald, a $1.5 billion vessel bristling with electronics, collided with a container ship, resulting in the deaths of seven sailors. The commanding officer and two other officers were formally removed from duties.

“I don’t have proof, but you have to wonder if there were electronic issues,” Stutzman said.

Todd E. Humphreys, a professor at the University of Texas and expert in satellite navigation systems, echoed a similar concern: “Statistically, it looks very suspicious, doesn’t it?”

IT WAS PROBABLY A SIGNAL THAT CAME FROM THE RUSSIAN MAINLAND.

Todd E. Humphreys, professor at University of Texas

These irregularities are affecting the shipping industry too.

In a little noticed June 22 incident, someone manipulated GPS signals in the eastern part of the Black Sea, leaving some 20 ships with little situational awareness. Shipboard navigation equipment, which appeared to be working properly, reported the location of the vessels 20 miles inland, near an airport.

That was the first known instance of GPS “spoofing,” or misdirection.

Much more serious than jamming, spoofing interferes with location even as computer screens offer normal readouts. Everything looks normal – but it isn’t.

“We saw it done in, I would say, a really unsubtle way, a really ham-fisted way. It was probably a signal that came from the Russian mainland,” Humphreys said.

Such spoofing once required expensive equipment and deep software coding skills. But Humphreys said it can now be done with off-the-shelf gear and easily attainable software.

“Imagine the English Channel, one of the most highly trafficked shipping lanes in the world, and also subject to bad weather. Hundreds and hundreds of ships are going back and forth. It would be mayhem if the right team came in there and decided to do a spoofing attack,” Humphreys said.

The U.S. military uses encrypted signals for geolocation of vessels, rather than commercial GPS. Humphreys said there is no indication that faulty satellite communications were a culprit in the USS McCain accident.

Global shipping also was disrupted following a worldwide attack June 27 that hit hundreds of thousands of computers. Shipping giant A.P. Moller-Maersk was reduced to manual tracking of cargo amid the attack, and its chief executive Soren Skou this month announced losses of up to $300 million.

Most global trade occurs on the high seas, and the number of ocean-going ships has quadrupled in the past quarter century. Ships are also getting larger. The largest container ship now can carry more than 21,000 20-foot containers.

Autonomous ships operated by computers are on the near-term horizon. The world’s first crewless ship, an electric-powered vessel with capacity for 100 to 150 cargo containers, will begin a 37-mile route in southern Norway with limited crew next year, transitioning to full autonomy in 2020.

Most ships avoid collision through the use of a global protocol known as Automatic Identification System, or AIS. Beacons aboard ships transmit vessel name, cargo, course and speed, and readouts aboard ships display other vessels in the vicinity.

But the AIS system is known to be vulnerable.

“You can send an AIS beacon out and claim just about whatever you like. You can make a phantom ship appear,” Humphreys said.

It’s not just cargo carriers that rely on GPS and AIS beacons.

“Passenger shipping organizations and cruise lines … can be easily impacted,” said Eduardo E. Cabrera, chief cybersecurity officer at Trend Micro, a Tokyo-based cybersecurity firm.

Other factors can cause breeches on shipboard systems. Stutzman said crews rotate constantly, meaning shipboard log-on procedures are often simple and shared widely. Moreover, ship crews often download quantities of movies, books, and music while onshore to fight boredom while at sea, often linking to onboard networks and exposing them to viruses.

Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/new...2.html#storylink=cpy

^^^^^^^
Except US ships employ Anti spoofing hardware and software. And lets not forget, they have multiple sources of navigation. When someone can spoof gravity and the earths rotation this might actually happen. Until then the simplest solution is usually the correct answer.

So, "hackers" did it, then?

Mmm hmm.

Sure.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:....said Jeff Stutzman, chief intelligence officer at Wapack Labs, a New Boston, New Hampshire, cyber intelligence service.

“There’s something more than just human error going on because there would have been a lot of humans to be checks and balances,” said Stutzman, a former information warfare specialist in the Navy.

....

Todd E. Humphreys, a professor at the University of Texas and expert in satellite navigation systems, echoed a similar concern: “Statistically, it looks very suspicious, doesn’t it?”

....

I'm sure these two gentleman are very knowledgeable in their fields but, this is Occum's Razor. While the electronic threat is real and out there, it still doesn't replace nor, supplant the Mk1 Mod0 eyeball or, basic seamanship. Watch standers, OOD/OOW, XO, Conn officer, you're still at your station with binos watching everything around you. An OOD/OOW who's paying attention, in communication with all his watches and CIC should be able to discern whom is a threat, hazard or, obstacle given all the resources at their disposal.

quote:

Originally posted by PeteF:
^^^^^^^
Except US ships employ Anti spoofing hardware and software. And lets not forget, they have multiple sources of navigation. When someone can spoof gravity and the earths rotation this might actually happen. Until then the simplest solution is usually the correct answer.

Even if the Navy systems are "spoof-proof" they may be using AIS signals which are apparently spoofable.

I don't think the reporter is claiming hacking, merely that the possibility exists and will be evaluated along with the others.

http://www.c7f.navy.mil/Media/...hn-s-mccain-sailors/

CHANGI NAVAL BASE, Republic of Singapore – Aircraft from the amphibious assault ship USS America (LHA 6) will continue search efforts today for 10 missing Sailors assigned to the guided-missile destroyer USS John S. McCain (DDG 56).

Ships and aircraft from the Royal Malaysian Navy and Republic of Singapore Navy joined search efforts yesterday and continue to provide assistance. Search efforts are focused on an area east of the Straits of Malacca and Singapore where McCain was involved in a collision with the merchant vessel Alnic MC early in the morning on Aug. 21 (as reported 6:24 a.m. Japan Standard Time) while transiting to Singapore for a routine port visit.

During the collision, John S. McCain sustained significant hull damage that resulted in flooding to nearby compartments, including crew berthing, machinery, and communications rooms. Damage control efforts by the crew halted further flooding at sea.

John S. McCain and America arrived at Changi Naval Base yesterday afternoon. While both ships are in Singapore, America is providing messing and berthing services to John S. McCain crew members and supporting damage control efforts on board which are focused on dewatering the ship and restoring auxiliary systems. Ship Repair Facility divers have commenced assessments of the hull as well.

Search and rescue efforts continue in coordination with local authorities. Royal Malaysian Navy ships KD Handalan and two coastal patrol craft Petir (12) and Pang Alang (39) as well as two Malaysian Maritime Enforcement Agency vessels are on scene today.

quote:

Originally posted by Fenris:

quote:

Originally posted by bald1:

quote:

Originally posted by kimber1911:
Believe last successful attack beyond eyeball distance was the USS Stark, and that was supposedly friendly fire.

"friendly fire"? How are two Iraqi Exocet missles friendly fire during the Iran-Iraq war?

The Exocet missile was made in France, which some people consider friendly, but other consider rude and snobby. However "rude and snobby fire" sounds funny.

Additionally Iraq and the US were on the same side fighting against Iran.
Iraq said they were sorry, their pilot was confused.

US Navy dry docks wll be busy for a while

Hacked. Wonder if this one of those Navy investigations that come up with a cause and the investigation works backwards trying to prove that conclusion.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ulsterman,

quote:

Originally posted by Fenris:

quote:

Originally posted by PeteF:
^^^^^^^
Except US ships employ Anti spoofing hardware and software. And lets not forget, they have multiple sources of navigation. When someone can spoof gravity and the earths rotation this might actually happen. Until then the simplest solution is usually the correct answer.

Even if the Navy systems are "spoof-proof" they may be using AIS signals which are apparently spoofable.

How exactly do you spoof Inertial Navigation? That is my point. There are redundant navigation systems. The military acknowledges the chance of EW so it builds in safeties to deal with it.

The commander of the U.S. Pacific Fleet says a number of remains of Navy sailors were found in a compartment of the USS John McCain, a day after the warship’s collision with an oil tanker in Southeast Asian waters left 10 sailors missing.

Adm. Scott Swift also said at a news conference in Singapore on Tuesday that Malaysian officials have found one body that has not yet been identified.

The focus of the search for 10 U.S. sailors missing after a collision between the USS John S. McCain and an oil tanker in Southeast Asian waters shifted Tuesday to the damaged destroyer’s flooded compartments.

https://apnews.com/190b63a25c6...witter&utm_medium=AP

Remember all the senior Officers that Obama fired? Has training and readiness taken a hit? Things happen down the road.

quote:

Originally posted by PeteF:
^^^^^^^
Except US ships employ Anti spoofing hardware and software. And lets not forget, they have multiple sources of navigation. When someone can spoof gravity and the earths rotation this might actually happen. Until then the simplest solution is usually the correct answer.

can't one just look out the window and see your gonna be T-boned?

quote:

Originally posted by Deqlyn:

quote:

Originally posted by PeteF:
^^^^^^^
Except US ships employ Anti spoofing hardware and software. And lets not forget, they have multiple sources of navigation. When someone can spoof gravity and the earths rotation this might actually happen. Until then the simplest solution is usually the correct answer.

can't one just look out the window and see your gonna be T-boned?

Well, at night it can be a bit trickier, but that's why ships have lights, radar, and a freakin' radio! Simply picking up the darn mic and communicating helps avoid many of these incidents.

quote:

Originally posted by PeteF:

quote:

Originally posted by Fenris:
Even if the Navy systems are "spoof-proof" they may be using AIS signals which are apparently spoofable.

How exactly do you spoof Inertial Navigation? That is my point. There are redundant navigation systems. The military acknowledges the chance of EW so it builds in safeties to deal with it.

I was suggesting that the AIS signals could be spoofed. So instead of there equipment warning them that they are closing with a humungus merchant ship, the AIS signal from the merchant ship is showing further away.

The Navy systems may be working but possibly the information signals they are receiving are wrong.