quote:

Originally posted by CaptainMike:



It would depend on the sea state, in calm conditions (less than 2' seas) I would be able to see you clear as a bell out to about 6 NM, in 8-10 ft seas probably not at all.
Most ships (Navy and civilian) have 2 types of navigation RADAR (X-band and S-band; 3 cm and 11 cm wavelength respectively) The X band is better for small, close targets (but gets absorbed by H20 so is poor in rain or fog) The S band is better for larger, longer range targets and cuts through rain and water vapor better.

I went to a great deal of trouble to make sure you would never see me out there in 8-10' seas! Lots of misery and despair in that scenario.

quote:

Originally posted by Rightwire:

quote:

Originally posted by CaptainMike:
Rightward, I covered it as best I could on page 4.
The Straights of Malacca are incredibly congested, they likely were overwhelmed with target data and lost situational awareness.

Ok, that is a fair explanation. I guess it would point to a different issue though if the crew was overwhelmed with target data to the point where they became ineffective.

Follow up question. How often do US Navy ships get underway and navigate totally alone? Was this ship part of a fleet or off on it's own? If part of a group, even 2 ships, do they split target tracking duties and stay in constant contact?

I know US Navy Subs operate alone for obvious reasons, I guess it never occurred to me that a Destroyer or Cruiser would be off on its own and not part of a larger group.

From what I've read they were headed into port in Singapore alone. DDG's and CG's often operate solo. Even if they had been part of a task group, they would have separated to pass through this congested area, It would be impossible to conduct formation maneuvers in the Straights of Malacca, (Though if anyone ever wants to try I would buy tickets.)

I went to Marine Traffic to get track info for ALNIC MC, but the data we would like to see is not there. Remember we learned a lot about ACX Crystal from its track data.

Here is ALNIC MC from 22 July 2017



Note there are no data points from Taiwan to the collision point. Did ALNIC MC have its AIS turned off ?


here is the track data for the last 2 days:

quote:

Originally posted by CaptainMike:

quote:

Originally posted by Rightwire:

quote:

Originally posted by CaptainMike:
Rightward, I covered it as best I could on page 4.
The Straights of Malacca are incredibly congested, they likely were overwhelmed with target data and lost situational awareness.

Ok, that is a fair explanation. I guess it would point to a different issue though if the crew was overwhelmed with target data to the point where they became ineffective.

Follow up question. How often do US Navy ships get underway and navigate totally alone? Was this ship part of a fleet or off on it's own? If part of a group, even 2 ships, do they split target tracking duties and stay in constant contact?

I know US Navy Subs operate alone for obvious reasons, I guess it never occurred to me that a Destroyer or Cruiser would be off on its own and not part of a larger group.

From what I've read they were headed into port in Singapore alone. DDG's and CG's often operate solo. Even if they had been part of a task group, they would have separated to pass through this congested area, It would be impossible to conduct formation maneuvers in the Straights of Malacca, (Though if anyone ever wants to try I would buy tickets.)

Ok, it makes a little more sense now. Thanks

I find it interesting that we don't hear of more merchant ship collisions if this area is so congested? Maybe there are and we don't hear about them? And again, why a Naval ship with state of the art equipment is involved twice in two months. Especially the second time when awareness should be at a peak.

I've actually sailed into Singapore, but it was many years ago and being an engineer, I didn't have the "pleasure" of observing ship traffic.

quote:

Originally posted by kimber1911:
Wow!
How can the US Navy fight a war if it can not even see merchant ships?

I wonder about that too.

quote:

Originally posted by CaptainMike:

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
I wonder what I looked like on my 37'er heading out to Catalina!

37' fiberglass boat? Probably didn't show up on radar at all. Or, if it did, was buried in surface clutter, would be my guess.

It would depend on the sea state, in calm conditions (less than 2' seas) I would be able to see you clear as a bell out to about 6 NM, in 8-10 ft seas probably not at all.

Hmmm... We were always warned that big ships would never see us on their radar. Maybe that was stale info, based on radar performance before the days of DSP?

Nonetheless: Had we gone cruising, as was our original intent, our boat would've been equipped with AIS.

Sdy, The AIS tracks are not continuous because websites like vesseltraffic are relying on shore based receivers which are connected to the web for their data. When the vessel is out of VHF range it will have no recorded track. There are satellites which monitor AIS, but those are governmental or paid subscription.

7th fleet says the collision was reported about 530 am local Singapore time.

Sunrise at Singapore is 7am.

So it sounds like it was still dark.

The damage looks like the tanker did hit approaching from the port stern quarter of DDG 56. (actually somewhat similar to DDG 62 collision except that was on starboard side)

[/QUOTE]
Hmmm... We were always warned that big ships would never see us on their radar. Maybe that was stale info, based on radar performance before the days of DSP?

Nonetheless: Had we gone cruising, as was our original intent, our boat would've been equipped with AIS.[/QUOTE]

Depends on both the operator and the RADAR, there are lots of poorly maintained ships operated by foreign crews which probably wouldn't see a 30' fiberglass boat at 6 or even 3 NM.

quote:

Originally posted by 6guns:
I find it interesting that we don't hear of more merchant ship collisions if this area is so congested? Maybe there are and we don't hear about them? And again, why a Naval ship with state of the art equipment is involved twice in two months. Especially the second time when awareness should be at a peak.

I've actually sailed into Singapore, but it was many years ago and being an engineer, I didn't have the "pleasure" of observing ship traffic.

There are collisions between merchant ships you don't hear about, but they are not really that frequent considering there are several hundred thousand merchant ships spending 80% of their time underway vs <300 US Navy ships spending 50% of their time underway.
Merchant ships are better at "following the rules" and "staying in their lanes" than the US Navy. The Navy likes to do everything their own way which often appears nonsensical to those of us who drive ships for a living. If the McCain was at Special Sea and Anchor detail they might have had 25+ people on watch on the bridge and CIC, vs 2 or 3 on the bridge of the tanker.

I think one of the main contributing factors, and perhaps CaptainMike can attest to this, is that Navy vessels are simply horrible when it comes to communicating with Merchant Vessels. Bridge personnel on a Merchant ship are constantly picking up the mic and talking to each other, especially in congested waters. My experience is that those on the bridge of a Navy ship simply can't be bothered.

I sometimes wonder if the Navy ship would even know how to respond to a mate on a tanker getting on the radio and saying, "I'm going to give you two short blasts, Captain."

I gotta believe that Richardson is going to get a major ass reaming by our beloved CNC. I would not want to be him.

quote:

Originally posted by CaptainMike:

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
I think one of the main contributing factors, and perhaps CaptainMike can attest to this, is that Navy vessels are simply horrible when it comes to communicating with Merchant Vessels. Bridge personnel on a Merchant ship are constantly picking up the mic and talking to each other, especially in congested waters. My experience is that those on the bridge of a Navy ship simply can't be bothered.

I sometimes wonder if the Navy ship would even know how to respond to a mate on a tanker getting on the radio and saying, "I'm going to give you two short blasts, Captain."

The very last (and possibly most important) line of my post on page 3 reads :
"Last but not least is the hesitance of the USN to simply pick up the fucking VHF and say, "Vessel So and So, this is US Navy Warship off your port bow, can you alter course to Starboard?" They hardly ever do this.
Fucking OPSEC."

A typical conversation goes something like this:

A: "Vessel Bravo, this is vessel Alpha, see you on the 1?"
B: "Roger that Alpha, 1 understood, Bravo out"

Which means: "Hey there, we are meeting and it looks like the CPA is a little closer than I am going to be comfortable with, I'm going to alter my course slightly to Starboard and plan on seeing you port to port (1 short whistle blast)."

B: "I see you and understand, I will also adjust my course to STBD and plan on passing you port to port at a safe distance"

I have 50 such conversations a day approaching and departing port. A Navy ship making the same transit probably zero such conversations.

quote:

Originally posted by CaptainMike:

quote:

Originally posted by 6guns:
I find it interesting that we don't hear of more merchant ship collisions if this area is so congested? Maybe there are and we don't hear about them? And again, why a Naval ship with state of the art equipment is involved twice in two months. Especially the second time when awareness should be at a peak.

I've actually sailed into Singapore, but it was many years ago and being an engineer, I didn't have the "pleasure" of observing ship traffic.

There are collisions between merchant ships you don't hear about, but they are not really that frequent considering there are several hundred thousand merchant ships spending 80% of their time underway vs <300 US Navy ships spending 50% of their time underway.
Merchant ships are better at "following the rules" and "staying in their lanes" than the US Navy. The Navy likes to do everything their own way which often appears nonsensical to those of us who drive ships for a living. If the McCain was at Special Sea and Anchor detail they might have had 25+ people on watch on the bridge and CIC, vs 2 or 3 on the bridge of the tanker.

So this and based on your example of communication, I think we have our answer.

quote:

Originally posted by CaptainMike:

quote:

Originally posted by CaptainMike:

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
I think one of the main contributing factors, and perhaps CaptainMike can attest to this, is that Navy vessels are simply horrible when it comes to communicating with Merchant Vessels. Bridge personnel on a Merchant ship are constantly picking up the mic and talking to each other, especially in congested waters. My experience is that those on the bridge of a Navy ship simply can't be bothered.

I sometimes wonder if the Navy ship would even know how to respond to a mate on a tanker getting on the radio and saying, "I'm going to give you two short blasts, Captain."

The very last (and possibly most important) line of my post on page 3 reads :
"Last but not least is the hesitance of the USN to simply pick up the fucking VHF and say, "Vessel So and So, this is US Navy Warship off your port bow, can you alter course to Starboard?" They hardly ever do this.
Fucking OPSEC."

A typical conversation goes something like this:

A: "Vessel Bravo, this is vessel Alpha, see you on the 1?"
B: "Roger that Alpha, 1 understood, Bravo out"

Which means: "Hey there, we are meeting and it looks like the CPA is a little closer than I am going to be comfortable with, I'm going to alter my course slightly to Starboard and plan on seeing you port to port (1 short whistle blast)."

B: "I see you and understand, I will also adjust my course to STBD and plan on passing you port to port at a safe distance"

I have 50 such conversations a day approaching and departing port. A Navy ship making the same transit probably zero such conversations.

Exactly the type of conversation I hear the mates and Captain on my vessel have equally as much. "See you on the 1" or "2" is the phrasing I was trying to remember.

This of course referring to sound signals.

quote:

Originally posted by Pipe Smoker:

quote:

Originally posted by kimber1911:
Wow!
How can the US Navy fight a war if it can not even see merchant ships?

I wonder about that too.

Most modern warfare at sea is beyond eyeball distance. They don't use boarding parties, grappling hooks, no yardarms to swing over from.

Navy to Pause Operations, Review Collisions

The U.S. Navy announced an “operational pause” and has begun a broad investigation after the destroyer USS John S. McCain collided with a merchant vessel, leaving 10 sailors still missing, the second such incident in as many months.

The response by the U.S. military signals the Navy believes it needs to examine whether there may be institutional problems behind the deadly collisions.

Navy Adm. John Richardson, the chief of naval operations, made the announcement about the operational pause during a nearly four-minute video message posted on Facebook Monday morning. Adm. Richardson said he also ordered a broader investigation.

“I directed an operational pause be taken in all of our fleets around the world,” Adm. Richardson said. “I want our fleet commanders to get together with their leaders and their commands to ensure that we are taking all appropriate immediate actions to ensure safe and effective operations around the world.”

https://www.wsj.com/articles/n...l-missing-1503329812

Any mention or discuss of what the captain of the merchant ship was doing/thinking? Don't they have some responsibility here as well.

How do two modern ships run into each other? Hundreds of millions of dollars in floating steel (and fancy radar stuff). You'd think the captains wouldn't want to scratch the paint job yet along ramming each other.

What the hell is going on here? Twice now with Navy ships and civilian vessels?

Are the people who are supposed to be on watch too busy playing grab-ass nowadays with all the integrated male/female crews?

WTF!