quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by 6guns:

quote:

I still think that we should declare war on merchant vessels. "Fire on sight!".

Unless Balze or I am on it, please.

Us down amongst the Black Gang are always the first to die.

Maybe you'd have better odds if they gave you a parrot and swapped out the peg leg and hook for 70s era bionics....

Here is a guess.

The ALNIC MC is coming in, the McCain is outbound on direct tracks. The Team Oslo is to port of McCain, the Hyundai Global is to starboard, both inbound. As the ALNIC and McCain got closer, McCain figured a port to port passing would be best, while the ALNIC believed a starboard to starboard passing was necessary as there was traffic off its starboard side.

They diddled around waiting for traffic while getting closer and closer to each other, then McCain turns to starboard to avoid ALNIC and ALNIC turns to port, right into McCain. No point in using ship's whistle, might wake up the crew or something.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:

quote:

Originally posted by smlsig:
I was listening to a talking head yesterday who said that there would normally be 2 officers and 6 enlisted men on the bridge who were responsible for piloting the ship. Several of those enlisted men would be on watch duty.

Saw an interview with the commander of the Cole this morning. According to him, they used to send these officers to a 16 week course to learn how to drive these boats and now the course is a self-study program given to them in CD form. Additionally they have reduced the number of sailors on watches to one.

He blamed the Hadji prior administration(s).

Fixed it for you. Lets not get carried away, very recently the Navy had more admirals than ships, the blame lays with Navy leadership. As I pointed out in a prior post, the training syllabus for junior SWO's has changed quite a bit ...and not for the better.

JALLEN,

thanks for the post on the ship track. Looks like Vessel Finder provides better data than Marine Traffic.

7th Fleet said DDG 56 was transiting to a port visit in Singapore. So I was assuming DDG 56 was generally heading SW.

Also the damage on DDG 56 port side looks like ALNIC MC struck from the stern quarter.

Just like w the DDG 62 collision, the tanker had been on a constant course for a long time.

Long Su Han appears to turn to starboard to avoid DDG 56 and ALNIC MC.

We don't know exactly where in that turn to port that ALNIC MC hit DDG 56.

The gCaptain post states that ALNIC MC sustained a gash to the starboard side bow above the waterline.

quote:

Originally posted by sdy:
JALLEN,

thanks for the post on the ship track. Looks like Vessel Finder provides better data than Marine Traffic.

7th Fleet said DDG 56 was transiting to a port visit in Singapore. So I was assuming DDG 56 was generally heading SW.

Also the damage on DDG 56 port side looks like ALNIC MC struck from the stern quarter.

Just like w the DDG 62 collision, the tanker had been on a constant course for a long time.

Long Su Han appears to turn to starboard to avoid DDG 56 and ALNIC MC.

We don't know exactly where in that turn to port that ALNIC MC hit DDG 56.

The gCaptain post states that ALNIC MC sustained a gash to the starboard side bow above the waterline.

I just got off the phone with my brother, who was a very experienced OOD and has been in those waters as well. He pointed out that my assumption that they were approaching each other is probably not correct.

He voiced the view that those are congested waters, and you can get into trouble very easily, very quickly. Where was the Captain?

He was an NROTC product. When he was commissioned, he had only a couple of weeks at sea on First Class cruise, barely any bridge time. He says he really didn't learn much. That was before the SWO program, of course. It was all OJT, but they were operating so much out to WESTPAC and back, there was plenty of time to get experience.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
Here is an animation of the track of the merchant ship.

Link

Just an FYI. The lines on either side of the purple stripe in the animation designate the traffic separation scheme. The purple stripe is the separation zone (like a huge double yellow line)
The McCain was in the inbound (westbound) lane inside the separation scheme (and subject to Vessel Traffic Service control) Singapore VTS will have a full recording of all radio traffic and a complete RADAR plot of the area. It shouldn't take long for that information to leak unless 7th Fleet has got a tight lid on it.
I'm heading offshore (into the path of Harvey) shortly and will be off the internet until I return.

after viewing the Vessel Finder video, some observations.

picture 1 shows 3 ships close together: ALNIC MC, TEAM OSLO, and GUANG ZHOU WAN






picture 2 shows TEAM OSLO passing ALNIC (the tracks of the 2 ships are very close. approx. 350 yards)

GUANG is also going faster than ALNIC, and GUANG is swinging behind ALNIC





Picture 3: OSLO has pulled in front of ALNIC and is starting to open the distance between them





Picture 4: If the collision occurred when ALNIC changed course, this is close to the collision point



I think from pic 2 to pic 4 is about 5 minutes

Pretty tight geometry

If CaptMike is right that McCain was in the purple zone, inbound (SW), it's hard to see how it gets hit on the port side aft by ALNIC.

I don't think Mike was saying DDG 56 was in the purple zone.

Note the 2 thin lines on both sides of the purple rectangle. (I think the 2 thin lines are 5 km apart)

You can especially see the lanes with the traffic in picture 1

The purple box is the dividor between the inbound lane and the outbound lane.

In the several ais video captures, the 2 other freighters are responsible for altering course to pass the alican since she was the slower vessel and they're overtaking her. Generally alican would maintain course and speed and the other 2 freighters would go around her, but should have all been within communication of each other via vhf radio and agreed on which side they'd overtake her.

Here is a chart from Singapore which might shed further information.

Link

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by smlsig:
I'm sorry but I don't buy the hacking story for a New York minute...
Think about this for a second...The Captain was in his room when his ship was traversing one of the most crowded shipping lanes in the world. That right there should get him court-martialed.

Next there had .

The captain of a ship cannot work more than a 12 hour shift due to safe manning requirements. They need sleep and time off just like everyone else. You can't go wake the captain up 3 times a night unless its a real emergency. The first officer who stands the other watch is perfectly trained and competent in running the ship in nearly all situations. The captain does not run his ship into port either, a pilot does. Sometimes the first officer is even more trained and has more experience than the captain.

I suppose you have an authority to cite for this novel and imaginative nonsense, like a Bupers Manual or similar.

For one thing, there is no such thing as a "First Officer" on a Navy ship. The Captain does not stand a watch, that I've ever heard of, nor usually "take the conn," although he can if he wishes to do so. He designates other officers to be Officer of the Deck ("OOD") and those officers stand watch in rotation. There may be some special situations, like General Quarters OOD, Underway Replenishment OOD, or Special Sea and Anchor Detail, designated to take the conn during those evolutions. The Captain is awake and on the bridge, in his chair, usually for those exciting events.

It is true that on some ships and in some harbors, a pilot is brought aboard who is experienced with local conditions, working with tugs.

Yes, safe manning requirements of the IMO (international maritime organization). It is the rules that all commercial ships over 500 GT must adhere to. I believe the navy does not adhere to this rule that all other commercial ships over 500gt adhere to, same as them never broadcasting ais. I

See uscg 15.1111 cfr for rest periods (minimum of 10 hours per 24 hour period, with one of those periods being at least 6 hours long) and the stcw code for watchkeeping maximum hours. I'm on a tablet right now and delivering a yacht from Long Island to Florida and can't figure out how to cut and past from another page on an iPad.

My friend that was on the George Washington stated they normally worked 12 hours on 12 hours off, but he was on it close to 2 decades ago.

CDR Lippold needs to STFU and go away. He's the same asshole who set up a security watch in Yemen WITH NO FUCKIN BULLETS.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by smlsig:
I'm sorry but I don't buy the hacking story for a New York minute...
Think about this for a second...The Captain was in his room when his ship was traversing one of the most crowded shipping lanes in the world. That right there should get him court-martialed.

Next there had .

The captain of a ship cannot work more than a 12 hour shift due to safe manning requirements. They need sleep and time off just like everyone else. You can't go wake the captain up 3 times a night unless its a real emergency. The first officer who stands the other watch is perfectly trained and competent in running the ship in nearly all situations. The captain does not run his ship into port either, a pilot does. Sometimes the first officer is even more trained and has more experience than the captain.

I suppose you have an authority to cite for this novel and imaginative nonsense, like a Bupers Manual or similar.

For one thing, there is no such thing as a "First Officer" on a Navy ship. The Captain does not stand a watch, that I've ever heard of, nor usually "take the conn," although he can if he wishes to do so. He designates other officers to be Officer of the Deck ("OOD") and those officers stand watch in rotation. There may be some special situations, like General Quarters OOD, Underway Replenishment OOD, or Special Sea and Anchor Detail, designated to take the conn during those evolutions. The Captain is awake and on the bridge, in his chair, usually for those exciting events.

It is true that on some ships and in some harbors, a pilot is brought aboard who is experienced with local conditions, working with tugs.

Yes, safe manning requirements of the IMO (international maritime organization). It is the rules that all commercial ships over 500 GT must adhere to. I believe the navy does not adhere to this rule that all other commercial ships over 500gt adhere to, same as them never broadcasting ais. I

See uscg 15.1111 cfr for rest periods (minimum of 10 hours per 24 hour period, with one of those periods being at least 6 hours long) and the stcw code for watchkeeping maximum hours. I'm on a tablet right now and delivering a yacht from Long Island to Florida and can't figure out how to cut and past from another page on an iPad.

My friend that was on the George Washington stated they normally worked 12 hours on 12 hours off, but he was on it close to 2 decades ago.

That is just hilarious, jimmy. You have no idea what you are talking about. The next thing, you'll be writing how military folks are entitled to time and a half for being at sea on weekends, and you get an hour off after every two hours at GQ.

Come on, man!

How does he manage to keep muddying these threads?

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by smlsig:
I'm sorry but I don't buy the hacking story for a New York minute...
Think about this for a second...The Captain was in his room when his ship was traversing one of the most crowded shipping lanes in the world. That right there should get him court-martialed.

Next there had .

The captain of a ship cannot work more than a 12 hour shift due to safe manning requirements. They need sleep and time off just like everyone else. You can't go wake the captain up 3 times a night unless its a real emergency. The first officer who stands the other watch is perfectly trained and competent in running the ship in nearly all situations. The captain does not run his ship into port either, a pilot does. Sometimes the first officer is even more trained and has more experience than the captain.

I suppose you have an authority to cite for this novel and imaginative nonsense, like a Bupers Manual or similar.

For one thing, there is no such thing as a "First Officer" on a Navy ship. The Captain does not stand a watch, that I've ever heard of, nor usually "take the conn," although he can if he wishes to do so. He designates other officers to be Officer of the Deck ("OOD") and those officers stand watch in rotation. There may be some special situations, like General Quarters OOD, Underway Replenishment OOD, or Special Sea and Anchor Detail, designated to take the conn during those evolutions. The Captain is awake and on the bridge, in his chair, usually for those exciting events.

It is true that on some ships and in some harbors, a pilot is brought aboard who is experienced with local conditions, working with tugs.

Yes, safe manning requirements of the IMO (international maritime organization). It is the rules that all commercial ships over 500 GT must adhere to. I believe the navy does not adhere to this rule that all other commercial ships over 500gt adhere to, same as them never broadcasting ais. I

See uscg 15.1111 cfr for rest periods (minimum of 10 hours per 24 hour period, with one of those periods being at least 6 hours long) and the stcw code for watchkeeping maximum hours. I'm on a tablet right now and delivering a yacht from Long Island to Florida and can't figure out how to cut and past from another page on an iPad.

My friend that was on the George Washington stated they normally worked 12 hours on 12 hours off, but he was on it close to 2 decades ago.

That is just hilarious, jimmy. You have no idea what you are talking about. The next thing, you'll be writing how military folks are entitled to time and a half for being at sea on weekends, and you get an hour off after every two hours at GQ.

Come on, man!

No, I know exactly what I am talking about. It is my career and has been for 20 years. All commercial ships over 500 GT adhere to the IMO. if not they'd be chained to the dock at the next shipping port until they conformed to the IMO. The INTERNATIONAL MARITIME ORGANIZATION is the rule of law in commercial shipping and almost every single flag state (country) adheres to it and every flag country and port enforces it on domestic and foreign ships. SAME with STCW (standards of training and certified watchkeeping) which was adopted by the IMO IN 1978. Ratified in 2010 to include the Manila amendments which includes rest periods and so forth that I've mentioned in a previous post.

YOU OTOH HAVE SHOWN NUMEROUS TIMES THAT YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHEN IT COMES TO MARITIME LAW OR OPERATIONS OF A SHIP. You keep on referring to why nobody used the ships whistle, why because nobody on earth besides the crew on the ship that blew it would hear it!!!! Another freighter is not going to hear another ships whistle while at cruise speed in the open ocean over the sounds of the engine, wind, and waves unless they were like 300 yards from it. By then it is way too late. In a harbor, at slow speeds, yes. Not in the open ocean. Standard protocol would be to hail the ship on the VHF RADIO. Next, you mentioned the captain should be awake in heavy traffic areas like this. I can guarantee you in the middle of the night, all these different container ships have the first officer running the ship most of the time (person directly underneath the captain) and you don't see them running into each other. The person directly underneath the captain, also qualified to run the ship (called a first officer in the commercial world) is almost always going to have the night shift in the navy too, most likely. It's the shift no captain wants. Commercial ships run standard schedules usually of 12 hours on 12 hours off and which shift do you think the captain (senior officer) is going to take? Navy ships run standard shifts as well the majority of the time. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen navy ships at night with no lights on whatsoever, no nav lights, how many times I've never had them answer their vhf radio when you hail them, when you know damn well they have a radio guy sitting in front of it 24/7. They run more 6 times more crew on operational watch than the freighters that hit them and still screw up and can't even get out of a freighters way.

I know very little about how the military operates. Professional mariners such as myself, blaze haze, captain mike and others have very little respect for their navigational and operational skills and all of these major accidents reinforce that.

Contrary to what you believe, I have had to take 3 different week long classes in the past year or so to adhere to the stcw Manila amendments by 'as has blaze haze and captain mike and other professional mariners on here. HELM, STCW, ETC. I spent 40 hours in helm (Human element leadership and management) studying previous ship accidents and what factors contributed to those accidents. Over 90% of the time it is human error. Mechanical situations only contribute to 6% of all of the maritime accidents. It is my career, it is what I do daily for a living and have been since 2000. I acquire around 200 days of sea time and over 15,000 nm's on the water each and every single year for the past 15 years. I've spent an average of 11 hour days underway for the past 16 days straight and have 2 more to go before I get done with this trip.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by smlsig:
I'm sorry but I don't buy the hacking story for a New York minute...
Think about this for a second...The Captain was in his room when his ship was traversing one of the most crowded shipping lanes in the world. That right there should get him court-martialed.

Next there had .

The captain of a ship cannot work more than a 12 hour shift due to safe manning requirements. They need sleep and time off just like everyone else. You can't go wake the captain up 3 times a night unless its a real emergency. The first officer who stands the other watch is perfectly trained and competent in running the ship in nearly all situations. The captain does not run his ship into port either, a pilot does. Sometimes the first officer is even more trained and has more experience than the captain.

I suppose you have an authority to cite for this novel and imaginative nonsense, like a Bupers Manual or similar.

For one thing, there is no such thing as a "First Officer" on a Navy ship. The Captain does not stand a watch, that I've ever heard of, nor usually "take the conn," although he can if he wishes to do so. He designates other officers to be Officer of the Deck ("OOD") and those officers stand watch in rotation. There may be some special situations, like General Quarters OOD, Underway Replenishment OOD, or Special Sea and Anchor Detail, designated to take the conn during those evolutions. The Captain is awake and on the bridge, in his chair, usually for those exciting events.

It is true that on some ships and in some harbors, a pilot is brought aboard who is experienced with local conditions, working with tugs.

Yes, safe manning requirements of the IMO (international maritime organization). It is the rules that all commercial ships over 500 GT must adhere to. I believe the navy does not adhere to this rule that all other commercial ships over 500gt adhere to, same as them never broadcasting ais. I

See uscg 15.1111 cfr for rest periods (minimum of 10 hours per 24 hour period, with one of those periods being at least 6 hours long) and the stcw code for watchkeeping maximum hours. I'm on a tablet right now and delivering a yacht from Long Island to Florida and can't figure out how to cut and past from another page on an iPad.

My friend that was on the George Washington stated they normally worked 12 hours on 12 hours off, but he was on it close to 2 decades ago.

That is just hilarious, jimmy. You have no idea what you are talking about. The next thing, you'll be writing how military folks are entitled to time and a half for being at sea on weekends, and you get an hour off after every two hours at GQ.

Come on, man!

No, I know exactly what I am talking about. It is my career and has been for 20 years. All commercial ships over 500 GT adhere to the IMO. if not they'd be chained to the dock at the next shipping port until they conformed to the IMO. The INTERNATIONAL MARITIME ORGANIZATION is the rule of law in commercial shipping and almost every single flag state (country) adheres to it and every flag country and port enforces it on domestic and foreign ships. SAME with STCW (standards of training and certified watchkeeping) which was adopted by the IMO IN 1978. Ratified in 2010 to include the Manila amendments which includes rest periods and so forth that I've mentioned in a previous post.

YOU OTOH HAVE SHOWN NUMEROUS TIMES THAT YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHEN IT COMES TO MARITIME LAW OR OPERATIONS OF A SHIP. You keep on referring to why nobody used the ships whistle, why because nobody on earth besides the crew on the ship that blew it would hear it!!!! Another freighter is not going to hear another ships whistle while at cruise speed in the open ocean over the sounds of the engine, wind, and waves unless they were like 300 yards from it. By then it is way too late. In a harbor, at slow speeds, yes. Not in the open ocean. Standard protocol would be to hail the ship on the VHF RADIO. Next, you mentioned the captain should be awake in heavy traffic areas like this. I can guarantee you in the middle of the night, all these different container ships have the first officer running the ship most of the time (person directly underneath the captain) and you don't see them running into each other. Commercial ships run standard schedules usually of 12 hours on 12 hours off and which shift do you think the captain (senior officer) is going to take? I cannot tell you how many times I've seen navy ships at night with no lights on whatsoever, no nav lights, how many times I've never had them answer their vhf radio when you hail them, when you know damn well they have a radio guy sitting in front of it 24/7. They run more 6 times more crew on operational watch than the freighters that hit them and still screw up and can't even get out of a freighters way.

I know very little about how the military operates. Professional mariners such as myself, blaze haze, captain mike and others have very little respect for their navigational and operational skills and all of these blunders reinforce that.

Contrary to what you believe, I have had to take 3 different week long classes in the past year or so to adhere to the stcw Manila amendments as has blaze haze and captain mike and other professional mariners on here. HELM, STCW, ETC. It is my career, it is what I do daily for a living and have been since 2000. I acquire around 200 days of sea time and over 15,000 nm's on the water each and every single year for the past 15 years. I've spent an average of 11 hour days underway for the past 16 days straight and have 2 more to go before I get done with this trip.

I rest my case. For all your claimed training and experience, you admit you "know very little about how the military operates." Do tell!

This entire thread deals primarily with the operation of a U. S. Navy ship, to which civilian work rules, customs, IMO, etc. do not apply.

Although these "blunders" are tragic, indeed unacceptable, you might consider that the Navy operates a couple of hundred ships of vastly different sizes and missions, under conditions not imposed on commercial operators. Maybe their similarities are different!

Ships whistles are required to be used, in reduced visibility, certain maneuvers, passing and over taking, danger, etc. The most recent cruises I've been on gave me the impression that they are in use, and plenty loud.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by smlsig:
I'm sorry but I don't buy the hacking story for a New York minute...
Think about this for a second...The Captain was in his room when his ship was traversing one of the most crowded shipping lanes in the world. That right there should get him court-martialed.

Next there had .

The captain of a ship cannot work more than a 12 hour shift due to safe manning requirements. They need sleep and time off just like everyone else. You can't go wake the captain up 3 times a night unless its a real emergency. The first officer who stands the other watch is perfectly trained and competent in running the ship in nearly all situations. The captain does not run his ship into port either, a pilot does. Sometimes the first officer is even more trained and has more experience than the captain.

I suppose you have an authority to cite for this novel and imaginative nonsense, like a Bupers Manual or similar.

For one thing, there is no such thing as a "First Officer" on a Navy ship. The Captain does not stand a watch, that I've ever heard of, nor usually "take the conn," although he can if he wishes to do so. He designates other officers to be Officer of the Deck ("OOD") and those officers stand watch in rotation. There may be some special situations, like General Quarters OOD, Underway Replenishment OOD, or Special Sea and Anchor Detail, designated to take the conn during those evolutions. The Captain is awake and on the bridge, in his chair, usually for those exciting events.

It is true that on some ships and in some harbors, a pilot is brought aboard who is experienced with local conditions, working with tugs.

Yes, safe manning requirements of the IMO (international maritime organization). It is the rules that all commercial ships over 500 GT must adhere to. I believe the navy does not adhere to this rule that all other commercial ships over 500gt adhere to, same as them never broadcasting ais. I

See uscg 15.1111 cfr for rest periods (minimum of 10 hours per 24 hour period, with one of those periods being at least 6 hours long) and the stcw code for watchkeeping maximum hours. I'm on a tablet right now and delivering a yacht from Long Island to Florida and can't figure out how to cut and past from another page on an iPad.

My friend that was on the George Washington stated they normally worked 12 hours on 12 hours off, but he was on it close to 2 decades ago.

That is just hilarious, jimmy. You have no idea what you are talking about. The next thing, you'll be writing how military folks are entitled to time and a half for being at sea on weekends, and you get an hour off after every two hours at GQ.

Come on, man!

No, I know exactly what I am talking about. It is my career and has been for 20 years. All commercial ships over 500 GT adhere to the IMO. if not they'd be chained to the dock at the next shipping port until they conformed to the IMO. The INTERNATIONAL MARITIME ORGANIZATION is the rule of law in commercial shipping and almost every single flag state (country) adheres to it and every flag country and port enforces it on domestic and foreign ships. SAME with STCW (standards of training and certified watchkeeping) which was adopted by the IMO IN 1978. Ratified in 2010 to include the Manila amendments which includes rest periods and so forth that I've mentioned in a previous post.

YOU OTOH HAVE SHOWN NUMEROUS TIMES THAT YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHEN IT COMES TO MARITIME LAW OR OPERATIONS OF A SHIP. You keep on referring to why nobody used the ships whistle, why because nobody on earth besides the crew on the ship that blew it would hear it!!!! Another freighter is not going to hear another ships whistle while at cruise speed in the open ocean over the sounds of the engine, wind, and waves unless they were like 300 yards from it. By then it is way too late. In a harbor, at slow speeds, yes. Not in the open ocean. Standard protocol would be to hail the ship on the VHF RADIO. Next, you mentioned the captain should be awake in heavy traffic areas like this. I can guarantee you in the middle of the night, all these different container ships have the first officer running the ship most of the time (person directly underneath the captain) and you don't see them running into each other. Commercial ships run standard schedules usually of 12 hours on 12 hours off and which shift do you think the captain (senior officer) is going to take? I cannot tell you how many times I've seen navy ships at night with no lights on whatsoever, no nav lights, how many times I've never had them answer their vhf radio when you hail them, when you know damn well they have a radio guy sitting in front of it 24/7. They run more 6 times more crew on operational watch than the freighters that hit them and still screw up and can't even get out of a freighters way.

I know very little about how the military operates. Professional mariners such as myself, blaze haze, captain mike and others have very little respect for their navigational and operational skills and all of these blunders reinforce that.

Contrary to what you believe, I have had to take 3 different week long classes in the past year or so to adhere to the stcw Manila amendments as has blaze haze and captain mike and other professional mariners on here. HELM, STCW, ETC. It is my career, it is what I do daily for a living and have been since 2000. I acquire around 200 days of sea time and over 15,000 nm's on the water each and every single year for the past 15 years. I've spent an average of 11 hour days underway for the past 16 days straight and have 2 more to go before I get done with this trip.

I rest my case. For all your claimed training and experience, you admit you "know very little about how the military operates." Do tell!

This entire thread deals primarily with the operation of a U. S. Navy ship, to which civilian work rules, customs, IMO, etc. do not apply.

Although these "blunders" are tragic, indeed unacceptable, you might consider that the Navy operates a couple of hundred ships of vastly different sizes and missions, under conditions not imposed on commercial operators. Maybe their similarities are different!

Ships whistles are required to be used, in reduced visibility, certain maneuvers, passing and over taking, danger, etc. The most recent cruises I've been on gave me the impression that they are in use, and plenty loud.

This is not a time of war. In the McCain's operation in this accident as well as the fitgerald's accident in a commercial shipping channel it should and is supposed to adhere to all imo commercial shipping,navigational rules and procedures(operation of vessel, not necessarily crew work shifts), which it obviously did not or this accident wouldn't have happened. There are probably a billion more commercial ships running around and the number of accidents percentage wise is considerably considerably less than the navy's record in the last year. Less than 100 accidents per year world wide actually. Navigational rules exist to prevent accidents. The fact that it is a US navy ship has no bearing on or in this situation whatsoever. It got t boned in a shipping lane by a freighter while steaming normally as a ship.

Yes a ships whistle is very loud if you are standing on the ship. Out in the ocean with wind, waves, engine noise, and an enclosed air conditioned bridge, not so much. In a situation with multiple vessels in small proximity, not so much as nobody knows which of the 5 ships the ships is blowing it's whistle signal for.

In a meeting, passing, or danger situation in open ocean (and usually inland as well) and standard protocol is to call the other vessel via the vhf radio and discuss your whistle signals via radio. In the Aicons ais, 2 ships are over taking it, 3 ships in close proximity, how would the 3 ships know whose whistle signals were for who just by blowing the horn. In open ocean standard protocol is the hail the ship on it's vhf radio and discuss your "whistle" signals and confirm them. For example: Aicon aicon this is the Hail Mary coming up on your stern, can I pass you on the two (meaning two whistle), aicon replies "no I am making a turn in that direction to go into a channel pass me on the 1, reply: roger aicon, will pass you on the one. Hail Mary out.

I've served under multiple Captains(O6's) underway in the Navy. I can tell you that whether they are supposed to comply with IMO standards regarding rest or not, IME they most certainly DO NOT.

These DDG's don't usually have an O6 as a Captain, it's usually an O5, which is a Commander who is referred to as the "Captain". There is generally several years(typically 6) of experience separation between those 2 ranks. Roughly 15 years to make Commander and 21 years to make Captain.

I can't say what has happened to training in the USN, but I can tell you that what I've read recently gives me a great deal of reason for pause. I really believe they have serious training and manning issues, much as I hate to say it.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:



This is not a time of war. In the McCain's operation in this accident as well as the fitgerald's accident in a commercial shipping channel it should and is supposed to adhere to all imo commercial shipping,navigational rules and procedures(operation of vessel, not necessarily crew work shifts), which it obviously did not or this accident wouldn't have happened.

We have not been able to figure the exact sequence in either case, so "obviously" is hardly appropriate just yet. As more details become known, the area for speculation decreases. I'm satisfied that the Fitzgerald crew messed up somehow, but just exactly how isn't clear. It also is not clear whether the other ship messed up as well, and if so, in what way.

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There are probably a billion more commercial ships running around and the number of accidents percentage wise is considerably considerably less than the navy's record in the last year. Less than 100 accidents per year world wide actually. Navigational rules exist to prevent accidents. The fact that it is a US navy ship has no bearing on or in this situation whatsoever. It got t boned in a shipping lane by a freighter while steaming normally as a ship.

A billion?

The Rules of the Road are observed by the US Navy. Sometimes it comes down to judgment. Example.... the rules define a crossing and an overtaking based on a bearing, I believe 22.5 degrees abaft of the beam. The initial report released the other day suggested that the Fitzgerald was struck from an angle of 23-24 degrees, suggesting a situation where one vessel may have believed it was crossing and the other interpreted events as an overtaking, with important implications on who must keep clear. This assumes that both vessels were manned, and saw each other. It isn't clear that is true.

The term "obviously" is inapt, just like "a billion."

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Yes a ships whistle is very loud if you are standing on the ship. Out in the ocean with wind, waves, engine noise, and an enclosed air conditioned bridge, not so much. In a situation with multiple vessels in small proximity, not so much as nobody knows which of the 5 ships the ships is blowing it's whistle signal for.

The Rules provide:

"Annex III prescribes ranges for vessels' sound-signal appliances (horns): one-half mile for vessels less than 20 meters in length, up to two miles for vessels over 200 meters in length." Whistles are only required to be used with vessels in sight of each other.

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In a meeting, passing, or danger situation in open ocean (and usually inland as well) and standard protocol is to call the other vessel via the vhf radio and discuss your whistle signals via radio. In the Aicons ais, 2 ships are over taking it, 3 ships in close proximity, how would the 3 ships know whose whistle signals were for who just by blowing the horn. In open ocean standard protocol is the hail the ship on it's vhf radio and discuss your "whistle" signals and confirm them. For example: Aicon aicon this is the Hail Mary coming up on your stern, can I pass you on the two (meaning two whistle), aicon replies "no I am making a turn in that direction to go into a channel pass me on the 1, reply: roger aicon, will pass you on the one. Hail Mary out.

We'll find out whether and to what extent any of that was done.