quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
That petroleum subsidy argument is nonsensical. Petroleum literally is linked to every single facet of your life. Food, plastics, transportation, defense, clothing. Shit, try to name an industry that doesn’t use oil. We will wait. It is basically zero.

Subsidizing a tiny fraction of privately produced cars for profit is apples to socket wrenches.

This is a common retort that has no real basis in reality. Yes, petroleum production is subsidized. Your life would be radically worse without that industry. Without Prius’s you would be in exactly the same spot.

It’s a stupid, silly, ridiculous fallacy of a comparison/argument. Please stop repeating that nonsense.

It’s not nonsensical at all because you don’t like EV’s. Forget about all the things made with petroleum and just stick with fossil fuel and it’s still a ridiculous amount of incentives.

“It's not just the US: according to the International Energy Agency, fossil fuel handouts hit a global high of $1 trillion in 2022 – the same year Big Oil pulled in a record $4 trillion of income. In the United States, by some estimates taxpayers pay about $20 billion dollars every year to the fossil fuel industry”.

Dude. Read your counter argument. It’s nonsensical. Subsidizing the Energy sector, Ie petroleum producers, is linked to every facet of American life. Including the defense of this nation. And pretty much everything else as well. Your friggin Tesla doesn’t impact any sector of American life besides middle to upper class white guys with multiple cars in their driveway. (I know prefontaine not you and your bolt lol). It is akin to subsidizing agriculture. It is a massive industry that we need and it literally feeds us. EV’s don’t even close me close to riding to that level of significance. Take EV’s out of American life and absolutely nothing changes. Try that with oil.

If you still think it is apples to apples then I have no reply because you aren’t being rational.

A benchmark for me to indicate how serious the so called green movement is would be the expeditious construction in earnest of hundreds of nuclear power plants across the nation. Until that infrastructure happens we can only support a relative few EVs.

quote:

Originally posted by 1s1k:
“It's not just the US: according to the International Energy Agency, fossil fuel handouts hit a global high of $1 trillion in 2022 – the same year Big Oil pulled in a record $4 trillion of income. In the United States, by some estimates taxpayers pay about $20 billion dollars every year to the fossil fuel industry”.

I’m curious. Are these “handouts” from governments an actual transfer of money, or is it from incentives like tax rebates? If from the latter, it seems somewhat disingenuous to call them handouts. It would be like a robber leaving you some cab fare and acting magnanimous about his charity.

And let’s be clear. The entity who makes the greatest profit on petroleum is the government, so any “handouts” paid to petroleum producers are more than covered by the money governments collect from the petroleum industry. This is certainly not the case with EV subsidies.

My suspicions are immediately raised when anybody says something like “4 Trillion in income.” That means nothing if expenses were 5 Trillion. Anybody who cherry picks something like income from a P&L is clearly driving an agenda.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Dude. Read your counter argument. It’s nonsensical. Subsidizing the Energy sector, Ie petroleum producers, is linked to every facet of American life. Including the defense of this nation. And pretty much everything else as well. Your friggin Tesla doesn’t impact any sector of American life besides middle to upper class white guys with multiple cars in their driveway. (I know prefontaine not you and your bolt lol). It is akin to subsidizing agriculture. It is a massive industry that we need and it literally feeds us. EV’s don’t even close me close to riding to that level of significance. Take EV’s out of American life and absolutely nothing changes. Try that with oil.

If you still think it is apples to apples then I have no reply because you aren’t being rational.

Exactly this. There is no strategic interest in propping up the EV market. Wheat, cheese, corn, eggs, meat, NG, oil, and other things that are in our national interest to support, yes it's for the greater good and protects the whole country.

There is zero benefit to fucking with the natural market for EVs. Moving up implementation a few years is actually worse for the environment than letting the industry develop on its own. We will end up with failed tech in landfills and batteries that can't be recycled easily.

If changing/evolving technology and natural market forces make ICE vehicles eventually go the way of the proverbial buggy whip, OK. Not government meddling.

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:
A benchmark for me to indicate how serious the so called green movement is would be the expeditious construction in earnest of hundreds of nuclear power plants across the nation. Until that infrastructure happens we can only support a relative few EVs.

Check out what is going on in Germany. They are trying to build more Green Power while decommissioning their older infrastructure, but companies are not investing in Green quick enough.

I love the cross market "subsidy" conversations.

Is there an EV on the road that wasn't built without using fossil fuel to manufacture it?

Is there an EV on the road that doesn't use plastics?

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:
A benchmark for me to indicate how serious the so called green movement is would be the expeditious construction in earnest of hundreds of nuclear power plants across the nation. Until that infrastructure happens we can only support a relative few EVs.

They also need to look at the grid capabilities and upgrading it. Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of houses, apartments, and down houses that will need electrical upgrades, etc…

Oil & gas "subsidies" are a the o&g equivalent to the "gun show loophole." It's a phrase used by politicians and media designed to mislead and illicit a reaction.

Refineries and Chemical Plants - we use the domestic manufacturer's tax deduction used by every other industry who manufacturers or produces products. Refineries are giant manufacturing plants where we convert crude oil into other beneficial hydrocarbons (gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, etc). Chemical plants are giant manufacturing plants where we convert a feed stock (e.g. ethane) and make products useful to society (e.g. polymers). In fact, O&G's deduction is singled out and is 33% less than every other industry.

Reservoir Depletion - we use the same tax deduction as other extracting industries (e.g. gold mine, lithium mine, iron ore mine, etc) for reservoir depletion. O&G's tax deduction is based on percentage depletion just like everyone else.

Drilling - We use an accelerated drilling costs deduction for exploration (i.e. looking for o&g) not producing o&g. Essentially, we've invest millions of dollars and many years in acquiring 3D seismic, geologists and engineers have used supercomputer models to determince there is x% chance of success, and then we spend millions of dollars drilling an exploratory well. O&G's tax deduction is only for the exploration well or wells (i.e. excludes the 3D seismic, the modelling, etc), and is similar to how the IRS treats research and development deductions for other industries.

There is nothing in our life that we don't depend on those oil and gas companies for their product. I hate that trope, it is simple minded nonsense designed to get one reaction and one reaction only.

EV industry does not need subsidies any more than Oreo's need subsidization. We would get by if both of them didn't exist. (just kidding, we seriously need Oreo's)

For the vast majority of Americans the EV is just not feasible to own if you don't live in a house where you can set up a home charger.

I'm seriously looking at getting a Tesla for my next car I'll keep my more than 10 year old Honda as a back up but I've been driving it so long saving so much money that I think it's time I deserve a nice car.

But I fall in the category of people that live in a apartment and if you live in one or a condo or any other dwelling that you can't set up a home charger the idiots in Washington don't understand where the hell are you going to charge it?

For me I fall into a certain rare circumstance that I may be able to swing getting a EV. I live in a state and area with weather that won't affect the range of the battery. My daily commute is only 5 miles each way and only drive 4-5k miles a year or less. Also there are a dozen or more free public chargers that allow 2 hour charging on a first come basis with in 5-10 miles of my home. If I can use those I can charge it for free and solve that problem of not having a charger at home.

But lets say that they are all occupied now I'll either have to wait or come back. I'll have to charge at least 1-2 hours a week for the mileage I drive. There are EV chargers that you pay for but only allow up to 2 hours max to charge and the rates per kilo watt hour are so bad that I might as well stick with the high gas prices. And forget using a super charger yeah it can solve the problem of not having a charger at home, only takes 45 minutes to charge the car fully so I would only need to do it once a month. And there are tons of them where I live.

Oh wait the rates they charge are so high I might as well stick with gas because it's about the same cost. And don't forget you can't use a super charger for all your daily charging needs because it will ruin the batteries life span and charge capacity.

After doing all the math though I would save 700-1000 dollars a year in gas alone, but it would cost me more than double on my car insurance and the tires would need to be replaced twice as often not including that the Tesla costs on average 25-30K dollars more than a ICE car.

I'm really looking at moving to another state with in the next few years and could buy a home and solve all the these problems.

After describing all these headaches I think I might look at a Hybrid again.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: dfens,

quote:

But I fall in the category of people that live in a apartment and if you live in one or a condo or any other dwelling that you can't set up a home charger the idiots in Washington don't understand where the hell are you going to charge it?

This is a big issue, how would people charge their vehicles, would the apartment company put in pay per use chargers, if so, how many would they need. What if someone parks their car in a charge slot and just leaves it sitting there, so nobody can get to the charger.

Like you said, now you have to plan to stop somewhere and sit while your car charges, maybe that's a good market, put chargers at bars, pull up, charge the car for an hour and have a beer/burger.

Also, not every home has a garage, so in many cases the charger at home would have to be externally mounted, how many of those will have someone pull up in the day to charge their car while you're gone to work, people area crazy.

I’m in a good situation for my EV.

House with a garage.

Solar on the roof.

Tesla power wall.

Charging station in the garage.

California weather.

Retired and don’t drive much.

I’m the poster child for EV ownership.

I don’t like the government mandates for EV’s and I don’t think they are ready for prime time or even close at this point in time.

Had to do it

^^^^^^^^really nice looking car. EVs do make sense for you as you’ve described. Were I in your shoes, I’d do it too.

In the current reality, EV's are not feasible, do not/will not work for, and are economically unattainable luxuries for the VAST and OVERWHELMING majority of Americans! And yet that same VAST and OVERWHELMING majority end up footing a sizable chunk of the cost to subsidize the privileged minority that can afford them!

Taxpayers Are Subsidizing Rich Electric-Vehicle Owners—To the Tune of Billions!

Add to the reasons stated above:
EVs don't work well in cold weather, making them a problem for about half the country for 3-5 months of the year.

Polestar’s Global Q1 Sales Plunge By 40 Percent

Polestar sold just 7,200 vehicles in the first quarter of 2024, nearly 4,900 fewer than it did a year ago


Link

quote:

Is the EV dead?

Not as long as Dems maintain a majority in either the House or Senate, and especially if the hold the White House. It won’t matter that Americans aren’t buying them, that infrastructure is insufficient for widespread use, that cost is prohibitive, or that the human and environmental cost is high. There’s a significant number of people in government who want the damn things and won’t settle for “no.”

Wait! PR64, you’ve got an EV Mustang?!?

quote:

Polestar sold just 7,200 vehicles in the first quarter of 2024, nearly 4,900 fewer than it did a year ago

Isn't this a $100K+ car? Who's got that kind of money?

If - and that's a might big if - EVs become popular enough, the prices will start to come down, but first the prices will have to come down. Flat-panel TV sets were over - some way over - half a grand when they first came out. Now you can buy a 32" at Walmart for less than a C-note (albeit only a 720p). A smart phone with more computing power than those used for the Apollo moon missions is a few hundred dollars. Here again, this is entirely due to evolving technology and market.