quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
EVolution...

Then there would be the people complaining about paying $75 instead of $16 to fill it and complaining about replacing belts, hoses, transmissions, air filters, brake rotors, brake pads, getting oil changes and other fluids, messing with the carburetors the first ones had, tuneups, points, condensers, spark plugs, sparkplug wires, distributor, radiator, they stink, and the inevitable “are you nuts I’m not driving around with a flammable liquid and n the car so when I crash I’m in a fiery wreck that burns me alive”.

Perspective.
Once people actually experience something it changes. There’s a reason why once someone experiences an EV they rarely ever go back if they have charging available at home.

But yes I’m keeping my V8.

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
EVolution...

Interesting enough, that actually happened, in the early years of personal automobiles there were EV's on the market.

In the city, where electric power was plentiful and where there were streets. Plenty were sold to use by people who didn't want to go out and hand crank start a car.

The first EV was built around 1832, re-chargeable batteries came along in 1850's.

Similar problems though, limited range, charging facilities, and competition. Steam was one, but besides it's fantastic power, steam required you fire up the boiler, wait for it to get up to pressure and then drive around.

EV's sold in similar fashion then, as they do today, in cities, metro areas with larger populations, who wanted less exhaust, shorter trips, and easy to start/run than early ICE vehicles.

As for price, well back then the Model T was around $850 and the EV was double that cost.

Explosion engines entered the market, that's what Stanley Steamer called them, ICE, Gas, engines hit the market and cars/trucks took off, easy to start, dependable, powerful, quickly fueled, easily maintained.. The Horse was on the way out as transport/work as the ICE engine took over.

Link History of the EV

Funny how the whole EV thing today is presented as some new and exciting different version of private transportation options, when in fact it was one of the first means of motorized personal transport, emerged for much of the same reasons, bought by the same type of people, and then disappeared from the world because it was too expensive, had charging access issues, lack of range, and the big difference, back then it wasn't tax payer subsidized and government mandated....

BTW most new tech on vehicles is put on the expensive models, then it trickles down to the mainstream vehicles, been that way on most everything since the beginning of time.

And, just in the news...doo doo doot doot doo doo doot

Lucid just offered up to $30K off it's top of the line models, with big discounts on all the others...

Link Lucid

This message has been edited. Last edited by: parabellum,

quote:

Originally posted by 1s1k:

The way the government screwed this whole thing up is by making mandates. I hate mandates as much as the next guy but there’s a certain part of the population that are the you can’t tell me what to do people so they dig there heals in and it doesn’t matter what the real facts of usage are. Everyone suddenly drives from California to New York for work everyday and believes every possible negative thing ever written about EV’s while ignoring any negatives of ICE vehicles.

This is coming from a die hard ICE fan who drives a 500hp Challenger all the time.

Well I’m also a gearhead myself. My favorite passion in life is burning gasoline in anger tearing up rural twisty corners, with a few track days per year. Also doing the same on the lake on a supercharged waverunner. I’m not giving up my sportbikes, my performance car, or my ski unless financial ruination occurs. I’m not going to limit myself to one firearm either because “that’s all you need”. Most of us own many guns because we have different use cases for many of them where one doesn’t work for all. Vehicles are no different to me. I have different use cases for them and one isn’t going to work for everything I do. I put my summer tires back on my performance car Friday, a turbo 300HP AWD 6MT hatchback with front and rear diffs, and had a nice drive yesterday out in my rural twisties, despite all the road construction out there with shoulder drop offs and cones everywhere. So like you with the Challenger, I’m not giving that up. Having a donkey to drive every day it just means when gas or the oil barrel gets expensive I can still do it just curtail my use to keep fuel costs in check.

I’ve listened to this stuff for 10 years. Some of us are going to have multiple vehicles anyways. I’ve always preferred to have an inexpensive, reliable, fuel efficient hatchback for a daily driver. I don’t believe in driving anything expensive or anything I really care a lot about day to day. Bumper to bumper commutes, lights in the city, and packed freeways, well I don’t care if I could own a Ferrari, that kind of driving is boring as fuck, necessity driving, and for that kind of driving I need a cheap daily driver for it. Daily drivers get scratches, have to go through all weather, get parked and baked in the sun. And what makes a good daily driver for me is not going to make a good weekend car, or something built to run corners extremely hard. It’s not going to make a good tow vehicle. That’s what a truck is for. So I’m going to have multiple vehicles anyway as I don’t believe in one vehicle doing everything. Because it can’t. If I didn’t have my electric toaster for a daily driver I’d have a Honda Fit for one. But the Fit would cost me more so I decided to do this instead and it’s worked out well financially as it pertains to fuel and running cost. I’ve got a number of vehicles and maintenance is nil. I spread the mileage around amongst them so it’s a nothing burger. Tires last, brake pads last, and if using high quality synthetics with Blackstone lab reports, I’m not doing oil changes all the time either. Then insurance, as a grown adult, with a clean driving record, so adding an additional vehicle to my policy is actually pretty frugal.

I’m no “true” believer or anything. And I don’t politicize everything. It’s an inanimate object. Vehicles are tools in a tool box to me so I choose the right tool for the job. As a ten year DD EV driver, I think the Teslas are a waste of $ to me. I think the electric motors in them are outstanding, as well as their battery technology. But I’m not spending Tesla $ for a daily driver because, again, I don’t believe in daily driving expensive machinery. I thought about consolidating my truck and DD EV into one vehicle, a EV truck but they are all ridiculously priced. They are all much too heavy. And honestly I don’t want to DD a truck, any truck. The size, weight, and cost just don’t equal a good daily driver. And these manus haven’t figured it out yet. They are all chasing consumers with deep pockets for the most part. There are only a couple inexpensive (relative to the average new car price in America today) EV’s available. Most of them are luxury vehicles, image vehicles, and most of them cost entirely too much from a purchase price if buying new. The better way is to let them depreciate then acquire one which is what I did by leasing mine first for $200 a month then buying it from them at lease end after they ate all the depreciation. But MSRP’s on everything now is insane. Gas, Diesel, electric, doesn’t matter, the cost is way up. I guess I’d rather have multiple “cheaper” vehicles than one expensive vehicle. My friend is looking at replacing his GMC with a new one, but he wants a Diesel/Duramax 1500 and they are in the 60k range. Wow. The one he is looking at cost more than a new Supra.

The hate will go on. They make sense for people, like a husband/wife combo where they are going to have multiple vehicles anyway. Or for people like me who are going run a designated DD anyways. But they don’t make sense for lots of people so that is fine. Nobody has a loaded gun to their head with someone yelling they must buy an EV. The Federal government isn’t forcing anyone either. They are a product choice in a capitalistic society where sales = what is made and sold. Back to the OP, they’ve hit market penetration with current offerings. Most manus are purposely not making smaller, lighter, more affordable options because they are only chasing deep pockets instead of frugal ones. Mine was cheap, it’s been the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned, the least cost to maintain as well and my next DD will certainly be an EV again, same model, just a newer one with triple the range. And like this first one, I’ll buy it after someone takes the depreciation hit. In fact I checked this recently and I can get their top of the line model with under 10k on the ODO for about 23k as a CPO. That’s like 20k less than the average new vehicle cost in America today and I make my own power at home.

quote:

Originally posted by Prefontaine:

quote:

Originally posted by WingedMedic:

Even with regenerative braking, brakes and tires both actually wear out much faster in EVs due to their increased weight — so much so that there are now significant environmental and health concerns regarding the increased amounts of 2.5 micron particulate matter in the air in several metropolitan areas that have been attributed to EV poliferation in those areas.

My EV, that I have been daily driving for 10 years, weighs 3300 pounds. So no, the brakes and tires don’t wear out faster. In fact due to regenerative braking, I’m still on the original pads 10 years later. And I have them checked annually. Most gas vehicles weigh more than it. Not all EV’s are 7000 pounds or something ridiculous like that. And many trucks and SUV’s weigh similar weight so this argument is beyond silly.

quote:

Originally posted by WingedMedic:
Also, people may not have to worry about hoses, belts, transmissions, and engines... but they DO have to worry about $15-25k batteries (and $6-12k battery charging components that aren't covered by the battery's 100k warranty)

Where do you get this information? 10 years later I’m on the same battery pack. No warranty issues of any kind. If in some future year, in the anti-ev handbook you’re reading, well a replacement battery pack for it is 10k. And that would triple the range of when it was new. Considering I paid $19,700 all in from the first lease payment, to buying it and getting the title, that’s a deal. Many engines in gas vehicles would cost more to replace. Hell the gas engine in my performance car is 20k if I had to replace it.

The shit is deep in here.

Cool story, so you're claiming your sample size of one represents the totality of the EV industry? Wow... yeah, the shit is deep in here, but not in the way you think.

Here's a link with a few studies regarding PM2.5 and PM10 emissions from EVs compared to comparible ICE vehicles. There's also also a comparison of the weight differences between ICE vehicles and their EV equivalents (spoiler: EV equivalents are 17-25% heavier, despite your claim that they are not).
https://www.researchgate.net/f...t-EVs_fig2_353150136

Tesla Earnings Call - Things keep getting worse for Tesla

Link

Recap: Tesla Q4 earnings disappoint; Elon Musk talks slowing demand, Cybertruck, and a next-gen vehicle
©Patrick Pleul/Pool via AP
Tesla reported fourth-quarter earnings on Wednesday.
Elon Musk talked Tesla's next-generation EV, the Cybertruck, and slowing demand.
Shares fell more than 4% after the closing bell following the results.
Tesla stock slipped more than 5% on Wednesday after the company missed its earnings and revenue forecasts, and warned of a sales slowdown in 2024.

The electric carmaker pulled $25.17 billion in revenue over the last quarter, lower than the estimated $25.87 billion. Adjusted earnings per share clocked in at $0.71, down from estimates of $0.73.

Elon Musk and some of his top executives addressed concerns about slowing demand and their plans for a next-generation EV. Musk also talked about Cybertruck demand and his calls for a 25% stake in the company.

Tesla might be facing another difficult quarter, Baird analysts warn.
The firm predicts Tesla will face a 5% decline in sales as compared to the previous year in its second quarter.
The carmaker reported a drop in its delivery numbers for the first time since 2020 last week.
Tesla could be hit with yet another difficult quarter after its sales dropped to their lowest point since 2020 earlier this year.

The electric-car maker is likely to face a "messy" three months ahead, according to analysts from Robert W. Baird & Co. Baird analyst Ben Kallo said in a note that he anticipates the automaker will deliver nearly 5% fewer cars in the second quarter of 2024 as compared to the same period the previous year, according to a report from MarketWatch.

All youse EV owners, question:



OK, just kiddin'

quote:

Originally posted by WingedMedic:

Cool story, so you're claiming your sample size of one represents the totality of the EV industry? Wow... yeah, the shit is deep in here, but not in the way you think.

Here's a link with a few studies regarding PM2.5 and PM10 emissions from EVs compared to comparible ICE vehicles. There's also also a comparison of the weight differences between ICE vehicles and their EV equivalents (spoiler: EV equivalents are 17-25% heavier, despite your claim that they are not).
https://www.researchgate.net/f...t-EVs_fig2_353150136

Nope. Never claimed it was totality. And I thought we were done with that word as of yesterday. My response referred to your blanket statements. As others have said, many of these EV’s are laughable heavy. Stupid heavy. Is that all of them? No. As I said my car is lighter than most ICE vehicles on the road. So one rule is not all. I didn’t lease then buy my car for emissions. You think people here on this forum are buying an EV for emissions and political propaganda? I don’t think so. EV’s make sense for daily drivers to me. And lighter smaller versions like a Leaf, Bolt, etc. 3000-4000 lb range, they are fine as it pertains to weight because unless it’s a sportscar, most ICE vehicles are pushing 4000 lbs now or more. Once they get into behometh turf, they lose me too. The problem is manus aren’t building lighter, less MSRP EV’s for the most part. Most are focused on large, heavy, and very expensive versions. They are lighter, more cost efficient versions on the market but they are in the minority. You said brakes, tires, wear out quicker on EV’s. I said not all of them. Again, 10 years on, original brake pads. Tires, same as ICE replacements. Then you went on to battery pack this and that and I’m on the original battery pack 10 years later. You have no experience in this space and are just regurgitating what you’ve read that suits your agenda.

My Tesla Model X Long Range Plus is the same weight as a BMW X5. Heck, it's within 1000lbs of the last V8 German sedan I bought a decade ago.

How many AAs it take?

If I said that the best selling vehicle in the world for 2023 was an Ev, would you believe me?

All the EV people can enjoy themselves all they want, but I live in Michigan and I just shake my head at the idea that an EV can somehow be a thing here, full time. You can’t charge it in subzero temps, you need heat in the winter and the one thing that seems to overload batteries/generators/fuses around these parts are heaters or anything you need to use electricity to generate heat.

Oh sure. It’s cute that folks can spare $50+K to buy a spare EV to drive to Lake Michigan in the summer. Hell I even have an EGO battery-operated snow blower, but I don’t need to risk my life to drive around getting groceries or pick my kids up when it’s fricken 1 degree on an EGO snowblower.

Shit. I pack wool blankets and outdoor gear in the car when we drive 45m to the in-law’s farm from Dec-Mar if there’s snow or it’s below 25-30.

EV’s are toys for people without winter.

I just can't for the life of me understand why, when hybrids were getting more and more popular and accepted, they had to skip hybrids and go straight to mainstreaming EVs. It doesn't make logical sense.

quote:

Originally posted by crue-dell:
If I said that the best selling vehicle in the world for 2023 was an Ev, would you believe me?

Perhaps the world, but certainly not in the US; EV’s only account for 1% of all vehicles registered in the US., and only about 6.5% of sales overall.

https://www.edmunds.com/electr...munds%20sales%20data.

Another thing with EV, take the Govt subsidies out of it, see where it stands.

I’m not anti change, anti EV, or anti anything, I just want it to make sense & stand on it’s own merits.

For the 100th time, the problem is not with the EVs themselves. It is with this feeble old moronic pervert in the White House, with who knows how many puppeteers with their hands up his ass telling him what to do, pushing them on us under the false premise of "saving the planet." And not just before they are more affordable, before charging infrastructure is in place, before the electric grid is upgraded to handle it, but that they are being pushed on us, period.

quote:

Originally posted by sourdough44:
Another thing with EV, take the Govt subsidies out of it, see where it stands.

I’m not anti change, anti EV, or anti anything, I just want it to make sense & stand on it’s own merits.

Don’t look at the petroleum industry with the same lens then.

quote:

Originally posted by Vgex:
I just can't for the life of me understand why, when hybrids were getting more and more popular and accepted, they had to skip hybrids and go straight to mainstreaming EVs. It doesn't make logical sense.

In those moments when my mind wanders freely, I’ve considered the viability of a diesel electric vehicle with a hydraulic drive. I think it would be an excellent combo. Not sure if it could be done profitably but it would perform in the practical application. You could get great torque with the hydraulic drive and excellent range with minimal emissions. Just thinking out loud. I doubt I’m the only one to consider it.

quote:

Originally posted by Vgex:
I just can't for the life of me understand why, when hybrids were getting more and more popular and accepted, they had to skip hybrids and go straight to mainstreaming EVs. It doesn't make logical sense.

This may point back to the IPO payola situation another poster brought out. I remember hybrids got great mileage, maybe THOSE will take the place of EVs if and when people wise up and stop drinking the gubmint kookaid.

That petroleum subsidy argument is nonsensical. Petroleum literally is linked to every single facet of your life. Food, plastics, transportation, defense, clothing. Shit, try to name an industry that doesn’t use oil. We will wait. It is basically zero.

Subsidizing a tiny fraction of privately produced cars for profit is apples to socket wrenches.

This is a common retort that has no real basis in reality. Yes, petroleum production is subsidized. Your life would be radically worse without that industry. Without Prius’s you would be in exactly the same spot.

It’s a stupid, silly, ridiculous fallacy of a comparison/argument. Please stop repeating that nonsense.