quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

Those costs are paid... by revenue through some seven hundred million passenger movements annually,

Not any more. For some reason, people just don't want to fly anymore. There must be an explanation.

quote:

Originally posted by Hay2bale:
There must be an explanation.

Tell us about the blue light, again.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by Hay2bale:
There must be an explanation.

Tell us about the blue light, again.

OK

"Flu prevention was the original inspiration for GermFalcon. Dr. Arthur Kreitenberg, an orthopaedic surgeon with a background in mechanical engineering, was already familiar with UV-C sterilization, because of its use in operating rooms. “Our motivation was to take it outside of the hospital into other areas where people are concerned about germs,” he says. With SARS and MERS and annual influenza, it seemed clear that airplanes are a major mode of transmission. It was also clear that nobody was effectively disinfecting aircraft."

https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech...olet-sterilizer-news

I just heard on the TV that President Trump is considering requiring airlines to use UV disinfection. President Trump IS really smart, you know.

The airlines could have used this technology, but the airlines don't care one little bit about their customers. So now nobody wants to fly anymore.

Not only does nobody want to fly, the State of Hawaii won't let you fly there anymore.

My friend's vacation flight next month was cancelled BY THE AIRLINE. So few people want to fly that the airline could not pack the passengers in, so they just gave up, but of course they kept her money. That's some fine customer service right there.

quote:

Originally posted by Hay2bale:

I just heard on the TV that President Trump is considering requiring airlines to use UV disinfection. President Trump IS really smart, you know.

The airlines could have used this technology, but the airlines don't care one little bit about their customers. So now nobody wants to fly anymore.

Not only does nobody want to fly, the State of Hawaii won't let you fly there anymore.

My friend's vacation flight next month was cancelled BY THE AIRLINE. So few people want to fly that the airline could not pack the passengers in, so they just gave up, but of course they kept her money. That's some fine customer service right there.

You have no idea what you're talking about and are clearly not a frequent flier.

quote:

Originally posted by Hay2bale:
OK

I was hoping you were bright enough to understand the irony, but clearly not.

quote:

Originally posted by Hay2bale:
OK

"Flu prevention was the original inspiration for GermFalcon. Dr. Arthur Kreitenberg, an orthopaedic surgeon with a background in mechanical engineering, was already familiar with UV-C sterilization, because of its use in operating rooms. “Our motivation was to take it outside of the hospital into other areas where people are concerned about germs,” he says. With SARS and MERS and annual influenza, it seemed clear that airplanes are a major mode of transmission. It was also clear that nobody was effectively disinfecting aircraft."

https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech...olet-sterilizer-news

The good doctor didn't actually cite a single case in which a contaminated airplane caused an infection. Can you?

quote:

Originally posted by Hay2bale:
I just heard on the TV that President Trump is considering requiring airlines to use UV disinfection. President Trump IS really smart, you know.

You just heard that? He's been telling people he's a fucking genius for a long time now. Smarter than the generals. Smarter than everyone. He alone, can save us. So he says. He can't finish a sentence, but he's what, now? An aeronautical engineer? Virologist? Pilot?

quote:

Originally posted by Hay2bale:
The airlines could have used this technology, but the airlines don't care one little bit about their customers. So now nobody wants to fly anymore.

You make these false statements, telling lies over and over, as if they're true, as if they have some basis in fact, as if you know them, and yet it's still untrue, no matter how many times you say it.

Most certainly people want to fly. People do it seven hundred million times a year, domestically. Presently a great deal of them have been told to stay at home. They've been told this by their mayors, governors, and even the president. The President has provided an initial fifteen day period of staying home, working from home, avoiding restaurants, bars, hotels, gatherings of more than 10 people...and you're going to blame that on the airlines, too.

We've already discussed why your vaunted food lion blue light isn't in use with airline operations, even the fact that the airlines don't own airports or control what's used in the jetway to the airplane, even the fact that no ultra violet light will make an infected person well, or prevent them from infecting others. There are none so blind as those who will not hear, it's said. Some hear what they want to hear.

What do you hear?

quote:

Originally posted by Hay2bale:

Not only does nobody want to fly, the State of Hawaii won't let you fly there anymore.

That's odd. We're flying there every day.

You're welcome to go. You'll need to be quarantined when you go, for 14 days, but you're welcome to go. If you can find a ride. Hawaii will let you fly there. But you'll get quarantined.

Your horse, the one that shits on the floor, it can go, too. I've flown horses to Hawaii. It will get quarantined, too, regardless of the vaccinations that let you take it across state lines in a horse trailer.

You don't have UV light in your horse trailer do you? If not, why not?

quote:

Originally posted by Hay2bale:
My friend's vacation flight next month was cancelled BY THE AIRLINE. So few people want to fly that the airline could not pack the passengers in, so they just gave up, but of course they kept her money. That's some fine customer service right there.

Without getting into a lengthy discussion about why anyone that would choose to go on vacation right now is a goddanm idiot, the cancellation policies of each airline, each travel company, are quite clear right now, and every airline is allowing a fairly liberal change policy in excess of what it was doing previously. Hotels, too.

I fly commercially as a passenger in another day. It's been cancelled and rebooked with changing conditions. My option to stay home isn't really there. My wife will stay: she has no need to go anywhere. Airlines being short of passengers has absolutely nothing to do with people wanting to fly, or not wanting to fly. With much of the country under a national directive to refrain from going to work, traveling, leaving home, gathering...most people are not moving around.

Your assertion that reduced flight schedules are a function of people not wanting to fly, based on the notion that people think airlines don't care about them, is a mismatched fallacy that sounds put together by a third grader.

Given that nobody could possibly that ignorant of current events, or as thick as you've indicated thus far, one can only conclude that you're being obtuse: you're fucking around, which is the definition of a troll, and it's for that reason that the ignore function on web boards was created. You're on mine, now.

provided the airlines, or any other corp that gets federal money is prohibited from using that money for stock buybacks, and the money goes to keeping their doors open, and supporting employment, I am for the proposal.

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
I've actually taken advantage of the dip in ticket prices and new change fee rules by Delta by pretty much booking all of my flights out for the rest of the year this month. Delta will allow a one time itinerary change without a change fee for all flights booked between March 1-31, 2020.

So with this Delta policy, I can book ahead and not worry about having to change my flight and incur a change fee at the last minute for the rest of the year. It's a not insignificant amount of money upfront, but it'll work out to my benefit in the end. And I'm doing my part to keep the economy chugging along.

I booked two trips with United as prices fell a few weeks ago. Looking like I may have to rebook at least one of them but I'm not too worried. As you said the current conditions will allow changes without the normal loss. Hotels and others are also allowing cancelations without the normal cost/headaches. Same with AirBnB.

All a bailout will do is help the large airlines and screw the smaller airlines. More consolidation will happen meaning higher airfares when this is all over and the recovery happens. All in the name of “too big to fail”.

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:
All a bailout will do is help the large airlines and screw the smaller airlines.

The airline industry isn't actually structured that way, and does not work the way you may think.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:
All a bailout will do is help the large airlines and screw the smaller airlines.

The airline industry isn't actually structured that way, and does not work the way you may think.

Ok then. Educate us. Then we’ll go from there.

Which "large airlines" do you think will "screw" which "smaller airlines?"

Are you talking regionals vs. nationals? Nationals vs. legacy? Flag carriers against someone or something?

The legacy carriers (Delta, United, American, and arguably Alaska and Hawaiian) have formed from the merger of other major airlines. Other than that, there are low cost carriers, the other majors and nationals, and every one of them are all in the same boat. Many carry passengers for one another through code-sharing agreements, have pilot flow-through from one to another, and numerous reciprocal arrangements in their operation, going so far as to wear each other's colors and livery when operating on behalf of one another.

How do you think a "bailout" will help "large airlines screw the smaller ones?"

I remember standing on the ramp in Quassim, Saudi Arabia, with an arab official I'd just flown in. We were looking at two decrepid 737-200's with sand blowers in front of the nacelles.

"Hasten the day," he muttered, when we can rid ourselves of these infernal machines." He actually said that.

I enquired what he meant.

"Hasten the day," he said, "when we can replace air travel with a national railroad."

I asked if he meant those slow, heavy earthbound machines that were confined to tracks which got covered in thousand foot sand dunes, and he said yes.

Bear in mind he's have rather seen travel by camel, if he had the choice. Fucking idiot.

Those who complain about the state of airline service strike me as the same as that arab; those who suggest we'd be better off without. Fine. Go ahead: see how that works out for you.

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by Hay2bale:

I just heard on the TV that President Trump is considering requiring airlines to use UV disinfection. President Trump IS really smart, you know.

Snip

You have no idea what you're talking about and are clearly not a frequent flier.

No, I am not a frequent flyer, just once in the past twenty years. I don't ride the bus, either, for many of the same reasons. I don't consider either to be sanitary due to lack of social distancing and sanitization.

But I do know that last fall, the airlines cancelled my wife's flight to her nephew's wedding, and they kept her money.

I do know that I pay a lot of federal taxes. And I know that the airlines want a $50 billion bailout because I read it on the internet. I resent that.

I know that the waitresses that I have seen every week for the past decade had an strange look in their eyes last weekend. I saw the same look on women's faces as I was watching an old Pathe newsreel of the German Army marching into Paris. I didn't see those waitresses yesterday, because the restaurant where they work now only does take out. How are these people going to pay their mortgages and buy groceries?

I hope President Trump bails out the waitresses and small business owners and not the darn airlines that brought the virus to us.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:


Those who complain about the state of airline service strike me as the same as that arab; those who suggest we'd be better off without. Fine. Go ahead: see how that works out for you.

Well, what we are now seeing now doesn't really seem so great in my opinion.

The airlines have increased their "request" to $58 billion.

They want grants, because they would have to pay back loans, and that would be painful.

"Minneapolis-based Compass Airlines, a regional carrier with 1,300 employees, said last week that it plans to shut down after its clients, Delta and American, reduced flights."


https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/2...circ=taboolainternal

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
Which "large airlines" do you think will "screw" which "smaller airlines?"

Are you talking regionals vs. nationals? Nationals vs. legacy? Flag carriers against someone or something?

The legacy carriers (Delta, United, American, and arguably Alaska and Hawaiian) have formed from the merger of other major airlines. Other than that, there are low cost carriers, the other majors and nationals, and every one of them are all in the same boat. Many carry passengers for one another through code-sharing agreements, have pilot flow-through from one to another, and numerous reciprocal arrangements in their operation, going so far as to wear each other's colors and livery when operating on behalf of one another.

How do you think a "bailout" will help "large airlines screw the smaller ones?"

I remember standing on the ramp in Quassim, Saudi Arabia, with an arab official I'd just flown in. We were looking at two decrepid 737-200's with sand blowers in front of the nacelles.

"Hasten the day," he muttered, when we can rid ourselves of these infernal machines." He actually said that.

I enquired what he meant.

"Hasten the day," he said, "when we can replace air travel with a national railroad."

I asked if he meant those slow, heavy earthbound machines that were confined to tracks which got covered in thousand foot sand dunes, and he said yes.

Bear in mind he's have rather seen travel by camel, if he had the choice. Fucking idiot.

Those who complain about the state of airline service strike me as the same as that arab; those who suggest we'd be better off without. Fine. Go ahead: see how that works out for you.

I never said anything about the smaller airlines getting screwed by the larger ones. I’m talking about smaller airlines being screwed by bailouts and ‘too big to fail’ politics. When the government picks winners and losers the taxpayers and customers are the ones that get screwed in the long run.

Like I stated earlier in this thread, so what if some of the bigger airlines go out of business. Air travel isn’t going to disappear leaving only ground transportation. There will be companies to provide service once the economy recovers.

The airlines are not going to go out of business with Chapter 11. Thousands of business have going through the Chapter 11 process. There is not 1 set of rules for airlines, and a different set of rules for other businesses. If they need to go through Chapter 11 and restructure, so be it. The government should not be picking winners and losers.

quote:

I’m talking about smaller airlines being screwed by bailouts and ‘too big to fail’ politics. When the government picks winners and losers the taxpayers and customers are the ones that get screwed in the long run.

Like I stated earlier in this thread, so what if some of the bigger airlines go out of business. Air travel isn’t going to disappear leaving only ground transportation. There will be companies to provide service once the economy recovers.

That's exactly right:
When the government picks winners and losers the taxpayers and customers are the ones that get screwed in the long run.
Bailouts always go to those most politically connected, the big fish. Those that don't get a bailout are put in a weaker position because they are at a competitive disadvantage. Bailouts lead to consolidation which means fewer choices for the consumer.

Hello, US airlines!
We, the American people, thank you for your recent bailout request.
We understand that you would like us to provide you with at least $54 billion so that you can avoid bankruptcy.
We value your service to us. We also value the Americans you employ, and the salaries and benefits you compensate them with. You and your employees spend money on other products and services other American companies and workers provide. We want to help your employees, so we will help you. Please see our terms below.
Before we begin, let us say that we sympathize with the bad luck you are experiencing. The coronavirus pandemic has been a terrible blow for all of us. We understand that it has been particularly hard on you.
You estimate that you will burn through $23 billion to $53 billion of cash by the end of the year, and that, without assistance, you may soon go bankrupt, perhaps as early as May or June.
You are therefore requesting a $54+ billion bailout, structured as follows:
• $29 billion of "grants"
• $25 billion of loans
• Forgiveness of taxes on tickets, cargo, and fuel for two years
Our terms
First, some context. Please understand that times are tough for us, too. Lots of us are getting hammered.
Also, two years ago, our government enacted a corporate tax cut that saved you and other US companies hundreds of billions of dollars. This tax cut benefited you and your shareholders, but it also ballooned our annual government deficit to more than $1 trillion a year.
With the coronavirus now plunging our economy into recession, our tax revenue will tank, and our deficit will skyrocket even more, perhaps to $2 trillion or $3 trillion per year. So we're not as flush as we should have been.
Second, over the past decade, you raked in tens of billions of dollars of profit and, instead of saving it, gave it to your shareholders.
As you know well — and as you point out in your financial filings — your business is cyclical. So cyclical, in fact, that many of you have already gone bankrupt in the past. So you could have saved this cash for a rainy day. But you didn't.
Instead, according to Bloomberg, you used a startling 96% of your cash flow to buy back your own stock. The buybacks of one of your members alone, American Airlines, totaled more than $15 billion in the past six years. ($15 billion! American, if you had just kept that cash, you might not need a bailout!)
Third, although the coronavirus pandemic is bad luck, it was not unforeseeable. In fact, at least one of your members, American Airlines, explicitly foresaw it. In recent financial filings, American cited "outbreaks of diseases that affect travel behavior" as a major risk to its business. American went on to say the following:
"In particular, an outbreak of a contagious disease such as the Ebola virus, Middle East Respiratory Syndrome, Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome, H1N1 influenza virus, avian flu, Zika virus or any other similar illness, if it were to become associated with air travel or persist for an extended period, could materially affect the airline industry and us by reducing revenues and adversely impacting our operations and passengers' travel behavior."
American sure got that right!
But, despite this and roughly 45 other explicit risks to its business described in its financial filings, American still chose to spend over $15 billion of precious cash on stock buybacks.
So, while we sympathize with your plight, please understand that we're not going to just "grant" you the money. The philosophy of our economic system is not "shareholders and executives take the gains and taxpayers take the losses."
You and your shareholders and lenders knew the risks you were taking, and, for more than a decade, you enjoyed the rewards.
Also, you aren't the only ones who need our help. Just ask the cruise lines, hotel companies, and restaurants, bars, gyms, and other establishments in so many of our American communities that have been forced to close altogether —as well as the millions of Americans who will soon be laid off.
So, your $54+ billion bailout will be structured as follows:
• A senior, secured credit line that will allow you to borrow the money you need to operate and pay your taxes while you figure out how to survive.
This credit line will pay interest at a rate that compensates taxpayers for the use of our money and the risks we are taking. The use of this credit line will also require you to issue equity to taxpayers to allow us to share in your recoveries, if any. Yes, this equity issuance will dilute your shareholders and cause your stock prices to drop. But not as much as they will if you go bust.
Our credit line, moreover, will be senior to all of your other debt and secured by your airplanes and other assets. If, despite our help, you fail, we will sell your airplanes and recoup 100 cents on our dollars before any of your other lenders get a penny.
To be clear, we are not in the investment business. We are the "lender of last resort." We do not think all or even most of you will survive this crisis, and we do not expect to make money on this transaction. We are angry that you did not conserve your cash for this rainy day, and if we did not have an economy to save and millions of Americans to help, we would just let you fail.
If you think you can get better terms from another investor, we encourage you to get them. We are offering you this lifeline because we benefit from having an airline industry and the jobs and services it provides. In this time of national crisis, we also do not think it is in our interests to let all of you go bankrupt at once.
Thank you again for your request. We look forward to working with you.
Sincerely,
The American people
This is an opinion column. The thoughts expressed are those of the author(s).



https://www.businessinsider.co...line-industry-2020-3

Screw the airlines, hotels, and many others that haven't thought twice about screwing the public in the past with baggage fees, change fees, resort fees, parking fees, etc... I have zero sympathy for them.

It's always impressive when someone has nothing to offer, so simply quotes an article, instead.

More impressive when they don't bother to read it.