Isn’t my fault either but it looks like I’ll be on the hook for everyone panicking for no fucking reason.

The only bailout I would favor would be for small business. So, Hell No!

I say screw the airlines, leeir custs th that treat them pay their own way.

There is not another industry that treats their customers as poorly as airlines. By:
1 - reducing space, legroom, seat pitch, etc. to uncomfortable levels.
2 - reservation change fees, baggage fees, etc while publishing fares that seem attractive. The reason for this? They are not taxed on "fees" just on ticket revenue. It sure would be nice for all industries to have this ability to lower their effective tax ate.
3 - Back in the dot com recession, airlines scurried for the bailouts and got them. Well, guess how many telecom companies got bailouts? Zero, and a greater % of the population and larger number of people use the telecom infrastucture than fly on planes. Do you think maybe Senators and Representatives fly first class so they will be favorable to the airlines?
4 - The airlines pay pilots a lot of money (and they have a lot of responsibility), but the wage contracts are such that pilots can game the system using sick days or fly on an emergency coverage flight for about 2X the regular wage. One of my close friends was a 787 pilot flying long haul and he told me he made about 400k his last year flying. He also was home a lot.......

By the way, I do not fly much, when I do it's Business Class overseas.

What about everyone else? Some schools are closing for months. How are parents who can't leave work for months supposed to make it? All of the small businesses and they're employees? It's not their fault either. So giant corporations get a bailout and the little guy gets fucked over again? Yeah, let the peasants suffer the burden and lose what little they have because the airlines are just too big to fail.

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
What about supermarkets?

Seems to me they're doing pretty damn well right now.

Well, I just checked air fare prices to NOLA, in case (God forbid) I have to go to help my kid in NOLA.
No fare change since the "outbreak".
Seems like they are ok, so far.
No bailout for the flying bus service!

Delta just handed out $1.6B to its employees. They seem to be okay

quote:

Originally posted by Poacher:
Delta just handed out $1.6B to its employees. They seem to be okay

See the article I posted on the previous page. The big three will likely be just fine.

A big chunk of US mail travels on the airlines; so much in fact that passenger cargo can get bumped, before the mail.

Airlines pay a very large share of the operating budget for air traffic control and the FAA. Some locations, communities where large airports exist, the job base attached to the airport has a much larger footprint than many think. Phoenix skyharbor, for example, is entirely self-sustaining and gets no money from the city. It has over 57,000 jobs at the airport, with direct impact of twelve billion dollars, and a total economic impact in the community of thirty eight billion. The associated employment is two hundred seventy thousand people. It's all paid for by the airlines and revenue associated with the airlines, and is a self-sustaining facility.

New York, Miami, Los Angeles, Seattle, Dallas, Houston, Minneapolis, Atlanta, Denver, and so on.

The impact felt when the airlines were grounded following 09/11 was resounding. I had a heart patient that night to move, in a Lear; everything was affected, and I got to watch the patient on the evening news lamenting his imminent death. It impacts a whole lot more than Businessman Bob going to a meeting for Tootsiepops.

Nearly 600 airline aircraft are available to the Department of Defense as the Civil Reserve Aircraft Fleet, and are frequently used as force multipliers for airlift of personnel and cargo, domestically and internationally, to all locations. The US military doesn't have enough airlift, and a great deal of it is flown by CRAF carriers.

The operation of all other facets of aviation, from air ambulance to the use of airports for firefighting and many other operations is a function of both the FAA and air traffic control, and the majority of it is paid by the airlines.

Don't get me wrong; I hate traveling by air, if I can help it. I don't like the lines, I don't like the crowds, I don't like traveling at all. Never have. I'm not an airline fan, and certainly not a fan of much that goes along with it. The airline operations, however, are deeply tied into a great deal of what most take for granted, and much that most aren't aware of. Today in a world when people want their amazon prime and walmart toilet paper, whatever hasn't come by truck has moved by air, and a lot more moves by air than people realize.

I'm not enamored with the notion of a bailout, but I'm also not blind to the potential fallout of damage to the aviation industry. There's a lot more tied to it in society, the economy, and the operation of the nation as a whole, than most realize.

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
I don’t think they should get a bailout. What about supermarkets? The corner coffee store?

Where do you start but more importantly where do you stop?

Treat it as Musical Chairs.

"Music" stopped. Everyone sits down in a chair, no chair? Too bad.

Sometimes bad shit happens, this is one of those times. Like the depression, little fish got gobbled by big fish. A lotta fish died. It stinks, but that's life on earth.

^^^^. Yes sir. The mail and passengers will get delivered by someone. Guaranteed. The last administration tried to make everyone believe the country would die if Garbage Motors and Chrysler didn’t get bailed out and it was just a bailout of the UAW. They both would’ve came back leaner and stronger without the bailouts.

Wait... who pays for this $50B government bailout in the end?

quote:

Originally posted by Hay2bale:
So once again, the Airlines want a bailout. They got one after 9/11 too.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/1...ercent-backstop.html

Trump says the crisis is not the Airlines fault. I love the Trump, but the Airlines spread the virus to the United States.

This is pissing me off! I think $50 billion is a lot of money, enough to build a wall on the Southern Border, and then some.

Why do I have to pay for this? I don't fly, hell after October 1 they won't let me get on a damn airplane since I am not going to get a real ID driver's license until my normal renewal date.

Last fall, my wife booked a flight to Denver to attend her nephew's wedding. She showed up at the airport, where the winds were about twenty MPH, but the Airline cancelled the flight because of the approaching hurricane. Then they wouldn't refund her fare.

I also don't understand how TSA is constitutional.

If the Airlines are loosing money, they should raise fares and let the passengers pay for the service they use, not the rest of us.

I think you buried the lead. Covid 19 in the US is the airline's fault?

Yes, Covid19 in the US is the Airlines fault.

The airlines pack their customers in like sardines, to improve their profits. They don't provide any filtration of the cabin air to reduce viral transmission. They don't use ultraviolet light to kill viruses. My local Food Lion has ultraviolet lights at the entrance for this reason, why don't the airlines. They pack the waiting areas and overcrowd the gates. They keep you in lines at the ticket gates.

If they wanted to spread disease, what would they do differently?

How do you think Covid19 got to the US?

Go bankrupt. Reorganize or assets bought by stronger parties to form newly named airline.

Removing moral hazard/financial risk destroys a country overtime. This isn't MAGA anymore. Trump becoming too socialist/FDR jr..

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:
I think that if anybody gets a bailout, it should be me.

The airlines have a lot of money. I just have a little.

And your only plane is out for maintenance.

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
I don’t think they should get a bailout. What about supermarkets? The corner coffee store?

Where do you start but more importantly where do you stop?

This is why it needs to be a citizen bailout. Let us support our small business owners.

We are going to try and be as normal as possible by getting takeout from our favorite local places.

While I agree the virus is a real concern, I'm not sure at the end of the day it Wil have been worth destroying the entire economy over.

quote:

Originally posted by Hay2bale:
Yes, Covid19 in the US is the Airlines fault.

The airlines pack their customers in like sardines, to improve their profits. They don't provide any filtration of the cabin air to reduce viral transmission. They don't use ultraviolet light to kill viruses. My local Food Lion has ultraviolet lights at the entrance for this reason, why don't the airlines. They pack the waiting areas and overcrowd the gates. They keep you in lines at the ticket gates.

If they wanted to spread disease, what would they do differently?

How do you think Covid19 got to the US?

The jetliners' air filtration system is very good, same as the ones used in hospitals - they do trap even viruses in circulated air.

Covid19 got to the US because of infected people traveled to here. It's unavoidable in this modern world.

Also I recall that in the 2009 bailouts, the government got most if not all of their money back plus interest.

quote:

We're tracking where taxpayer money has gone in the ongoing bailout of the financial system. Our database accounts for both the broader $700 billion bill and the separate bailout of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

Altogether, accounting for both the TARP and the Fannie and Freddie bailout, $634B has gone out the door.

Money has been coming back in two ways: $390B of principal has been repaid, and the Treasury has collected revenue from its investments of $364B.

In total, the government has realized a $121B profit as of January 31, 2020.

Link

So when the gov bail you out, it ain't free money.. you have to pay it back plus interest AND/OR give the gov ownership shares of your company.

So would you rather save thousands of jobs, get the company back on its feet, then have it pay back to the taxpayers or just let it die along with all the jobs, and end up in a deeper recession?

I don't work in the airlines BTW. But we have to understand that everything is connected in this economy. Big companies died, can very well take your company and jobs down with it as well.

I own a small business that employs 50+ people and provides a service to my local community. My primary concern is keeping my doors open so my staff can continue to be paid.

I already know I won't be getting paid personally for quite some time. I accept that. As a small business owner I've always strived to be fiscally responsible in order to tolerate lean times.

I know eventually things will return to normal but I want to minimize the amount of suffering endured by my staff. Like many people (myself included) they do depend on being paid regularly.

Truth is we need a thriving airline industry as an economy - just like we need an Interstate system (government funded).

I don't like hearing about ballouts, but the airline industry is crucial to the economy.

I know the old curmudgeons on the forum will rant "I haven't been on a plane since Pan Am and the hot stewardesses" and "I drive everywhere these day!!!".

I get it, but realize not everyone is drawing retirement, government funded Social Security, and can sit around complaining about stuff that won't affect them all day.

I.E., we are working for a living.