^^^ People are arguing from the past, or from their local specific situation. And digging in rather than opening their eyes.

I was skeptical too. My son who is 22 helped me see. Houses have doubled in cost since 2020, salaries have not. Everything else has increased 20%. College tuition is way up as well, increasing way faster than inflation.

Salaries have not even kept up with inflation. Companies do not give cost of living adjustments. Even during the Biden years of high inflation, companies begrudgingly gave 3% annual raises.

It's just that simple.

quote:

Today, a young man who scrimps and saves and has $200k saved up, cash, at age 30, earning a median salary cannot buy a house.

Here in the St. Louis metro area he could still pay cash for something that isn't extravagant, and buy something very extravagant with that downpayment.

Of our 5 kids, 4 are married and own homes. Texas, Colorado, Massachusetts, and Connecticut. All are in their 30's with from 2 to 5 kids each. Three of the 4 homeowners are single income families though at times all but 1 have had two paychecks at some point.

All are in their 30's. All are more or less following the Dave Ramsey philosophy.

So, yes, it certainly can be done. I don't think it is as easy as 40+ years ago if we look at ratios of income to home prices or the other burdens such as taxes and regulation. But also the post WWII era up through the 80's was unusual in growth of wealth. The first homes my grandparents or further back owned were much smaller and hardly luxurious, if they ever owned a single family house.

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
Houses have doubled in cost since 2020.

Are people no longer buying houses with this massive increase? Of course they are still being sold. And extending the terms of financing and mortgages is how it’s being done.

For a few saying “it can’t be done”, it’s being done. And the new iPhone strategy is how it’s being done.

We have gone from people wanting a living wage to people wanting a lifestyle wage. They could care less about the long term, about how much interest it’s going to be, or how long the payments are. They want to live a lifestyle with no regard for what’s best or what it actually costs. Those who are floating the goods and services consumed are maximizing profits. It is a system put in place by the “what’s the payment” crowd.

When/if it is no longer profitable for those holding the note, it will change. As long as they can keep making maximum returns off of their money, they will. Hence the 30-50 year mortgages.

We as a society are doing this. To say something like “we can fix the smart phone/Starbucks problem later”, you’re not paying attention to the fact that it is the formula that got us here. The less impulse control you have, the more profitable you are to a lender. It’s the always-a-new-phone lifestyle.

No, you are just failing to listen to what others are saying. You keep banging the same drum, as if no 30 something ever can afford a house. Or that all 30 something’s only exist in the highest housing markets.

You have made your point a dozen times. Repeating it again doesn’t make it true. In the highest of housing markets, 30 something’s CHOOSE to put themselves there. I am failing to see them being thrown into a van with a hood over their head, and forced at gunpoint to work there.

The economy and reasons the market is there is outlined in my post above.

Follow the money. Only when people refuse to finance things any longer will things change. We are artificially inflating the prices through poor financial choices. When financing can no longer be obtained, and houses set empty, will the supply/demand value drop.

Even companies are fleeing states with artificial economies. Dr Evil isn’t behind this. Our lifestyle is.

Amazing how tone deaf people are being. You guys are doing the meme:



It's not impossible for a 30-year-old with a good job, good credit history, good savings, reasonable frugalness, in a reasonable cost of living area, to buy a house. My son at 22 has saved well, has no debt, is responsible with money, well educated, and hard working, should do fine. And yes, he has parents with very good education and good jobs that are paying for his education so he has no debt when he graduates.

But we are talking about the average person, the vast majority of people that do not make enough money to buy a house. The average age of first home purchase is 40 now. A family with 40-year-old parents should already have kids 5-10 years old.

Yes some people buy nice cars they can't afford on leases or long term loans to look cool. Yes some people get a new iPhone every year. Yes some people spend $10 at Starbucks every day. But it's not everyone or even close to the majority of people. In the past, similar minded people wasted their money on other frivolous things. When I was in my 20's a coworker complained about other people our age, with cars and boats and houses and a pile of credit card debt, filing bankruptcy, discharging most of the debt, then starting over and doing the same thing. As long as they didn't need to buy another house within 7 years they would end up being OK. This is nothing new.

When you DOUBLE the cost of homes in half a decade, after you jacked up tuition so high that kids without parents that can pay for their education have to take loans, you change the entire system.

And the problem is that large middle ground of people that can't afford homes now, THEY VOTE, and they are likely to vote for socialists that promise the world, like the new mayor in New York City. And if the democrats get control of the Federal government again, you know they will pack the court, open the borders, and do everything to undo the good that Trump is doing.

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:
So, you agree with the argument.

By the way, it’s not the highest of housing markets. Here is the list:

https://www.nar.realtor/sites/...amily-2025-11-06.pdf

You have to be employed in order to buy anything, including a home. Compare that to major employment for people under 35.

The groupings for Indianapolis are odd - Indianapolis, Carmel, Anderson. Indy is all over the place with ghetto neighborhoods that are not expensive, and big expensive historic homes on the north side, and lots in between. Carmel is the most affluent suburb. Anderson is a factory town that was decimated by the departure of GM and the only thing new there is a Casino. Anderson is definitely dragging down the average.

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:
Jimmy, I believe you are familiar with South Florida. I’m not interested in a story from 2003, that might as well be 1903.

Today, a young man who scrimps and saves and has $200k saved up, cash, at age 30, earning a median salary cannot buy a house. They are all well above the range that is affordable.

Sure, if the economy crashes he might have a shot… if he still is employed.

It depends on how you want to do it. 2000-2022 with interest rates at 3% one could absolutely buy a house. Now one should wait for the next bubble to burst, but at the same time you could buy a 2/2 condo in a ok neighborhood for $200k. You have to start somewhere and everyone forgets that.

A tri-plex just sold in a good neighborhood, 2 blocks east of US-1 and walking distance to the beach in a neighborhood with $2-3 million homes about a mile from my house for $775k with a new roof and impact windows and doors. It had 2-2 bedrooms and a 1 bedroom apartment. Grosses $6k a month, $3400 mortgage. You could easily put 200k down, live in a 2/2 unit, still take in $4k a month in rent, and live pretty cheaply. While you are seeing property appreciation you stack money for the next move or stay there forever. But there will be another recession and property prices will take a good dip, and that's when you pounce. But right now it's being done every single day, houses are selling.

Who said owning a home was supposed to be easy???? People forget their parents had 1 car, ate at home all of the time and had very few toys.

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:

When you DOUBLE the cost of homes in half a decade, after you jacked up tuition so high that kids without parents that can pay for their education have to take loans, you change the entire system.

This is a self inflicted problem. Self inflicted by the consumer. You can continue to try to make it say what you want, but until you grasp WHY prices doubled (to which it appears you don’t) the problem will continue.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:

When you DOUBLE the cost of homes in half a decade, after you jacked up tuition so high that kids without parents that can pay for their education have to take loans, you change the entire system.

This is a self inflicted problem. Self inflicted by the consumer. You can continue to try to make it say what you want, but until you grasp WHY prices doubled (to which it appears you don’t) the problem will continue.

Self-inflicted is exactly what I was going to say.

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:
Second/third/fourth homes aren’t taxed appropriately - there’s only so much land in the US. It is not an asset that we can make an infinite amount of. (I’m talking SFH).

I’m not sure what you mean by this. We get the same property tax break on our main home everyone else does and we pay a ton more on our second home without that break, just like everyone else with a second home does.

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
Anderson is a factory town that was decimated by the departure of GM.

Dated a gal from there. Great little town…until it wasn’t. Globalism at its best.

That Delco factory kept food on a lot of tables and roofs over a lot of heads.

I bet the average age of marriage and first child have both increased dramatically over the past 40+ years. My son, for example, is a few months from 30 with no marriage or family plans. I had 2 kids and was living in my second house by then. Young adults spend typically more years in college now. We were determined to be out in 4, but 6 is typical today.

There are a lot of factors, including huge student debt today. My observation, not a scientific study, is that those of us between about 50 and 80 yrs old were in an abnormal economic environment. Better than previous and later generations had it.

Today's young adults have no worse of a situation than my parents' or grandparents' generations.

Blaming and whining doesn't change things.

Around here, all of the affordable homes are being bought up by developers who bulldoze them and build McMansions and then sell them to people who come from overseas with a boatload of cash.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:
Jimmy, I believe you are familiar with South Florida. I’m not interested in a story from 2003, that might as well be 1903.

Today, a young man who scrimps and saves and has $200k saved up, cash, at age 30, earning a median salary cannot buy a house. They are all well above the range that is affordable.

Sure, if the economy crashes he might have a shot… if he still is employed.

It depends on how you want to do it. 2000-2022 with interest rates at 3% one could absolutely buy a house. Now one should wait for the next bubble to burst, but at the same time you could buy a 2/2 condo in a ok neighborhood for $200k. You have to start somewhere and everyone forgets that.

A tri-plex just sold in a good neighborhood, 2 blocks east of US-1 and walking distance to the beach in a neighborhood with $2-3 million homes about a mile from my house for $775k with a new roof and impact windows and doors. It had 2-2 bedrooms and a 1 bedroom apartment. Grosses $6k a month, $3400 mortgage. You could easily put 200k down, live in a 2/2 unit, still take in $4k a month in rent, and live pretty cheaply. While you are seeing property appreciation you stack money for the next move or stay there forever. But there will be another recession and property prices will take a good dip, and that's when you pounce. But right now it's being done every single day, houses are selling.

Who said owning a home was supposed to be easy???? People forget their parents had 1 car, ate at home all of the time and had very few toys.

Agree Jimmy. Housing is available to those who look hard and are willing to live in a modest home.

As an example. Our DIL’s sister who lives in Palm beach County, not exactly a slum area by any means, got divorced about 2 years ago. They have a young daughter that was one at the time. She ended up moving in with her Dad in his condo for two years while she got her life in order. She fortunately was able to save during that time and two weeks ago bought a 3/2 house with a recent roof and storm windows for around $450K in a gated community which she wanted. She works from home and makes about $85k/yr so the opportunities are there even in a high income area like Palm Beach.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:

When you DOUBLE the cost of homes in half a decade, after you jacked up tuition so high that kids without parents that can pay for their education have to take loans, you change the entire system.

This is a self inflicted problem. Self inflicted by the consumer. You can continue to try to make it say what you want, but until you grasp WHY prices doubled (to which it appears you don’t) the problem will continue.

I have listed the reasons home values increased dramatically in the last few years several times in this thread, as have others, so we don't need to do it again.

The point is that regardless of the cause, young people are telling us home ownership is unattainable and they will vote for the person the promises to fix it. You can blame the consumer, you can blame the young people and call them lazy or entitled or whatever, but when they vote for marxists that promiss to socialize housing, like the idiot in NYC, a whole lot of other stupid shit will happen as well.

quote:

The point is that regardless of the cause, young people are telling us home ownership is unattainable and they will vote for the person the promises to fix it. You can blame the consumer, you can blame the young people and call them lazy or entitled or whatever, but when they vote for marxists that promiss to socialize housing, like the idiot in NYC, a whole lot of other stupid shit will happen as well.

Yes, this is true.
We can't just blow them off. The Marxocrats are trying to exploit the word "affordability" which of course is a crisis of their own making. Trump is doing a pretty good job of countering that.

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:


jimmy, you and everyone else is absolutely ignoring the PROBLEM.

If you are part of the 10% who does scrimp and save, you still can’t buy a house.

That is why no one is having kids right now.

We can fix the Starbucks issue and iPhone issue later; I’m focusing on those that do it RIGHT.

I'm slow. Would you please spell out what the problem is as you see it for the slow people like myself? I know that often, the solution to the problem can be found in the problem statement itself; hence, I want to understand the problem from your perspective.

Thank goodness the poor beat up boomers get up to an additional 8500 in tax deductions for 2025 taxes.

How about some rough numbers that may be roughly regionally reflective (YMMV)? Not an expert so check my math and assumptions.

1. Median wages: $65K annually, $5400 monthly
2. Median house: $475K

3. 20% down: $95K
4. Mortage (30yr, 6%-ish): $380K = $2300/month; This is about 43% of wages (target is 28% or $1516/month).
4a: to afford this house, wages must be $98K ($8200/month) to meet the 28% rule.
4b: for these median wages, mortgage ceiling is about $250K resulting in payments of ~$1500/month.

One common method to reduce the principle amount for a median price home is stock appreciation and bonuses (investments, stock grants, ESPP, annual bonuses, etc). One would need the ability to raise an additional $130K on top of the assumed $95K. Viability of this may vary but doesn't seem like it would be too far fetched living frugally / investing wisely / working hard.

ETA: I moved regions in order to afford a house. Where I was living previously the housing prices were rising faster than my wages and equity growth. After working for 10 years, housing was less affordable then at year 0.

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1

Median house price is minimum 5.8x median 20-34 salary (in the cheapest 2 markets), the average is well north of that.

Historical affordability was 3-4x median 20-34 salary. That is the problem.

The prices of houses is reflective of inflation.

I offered the answer to the problem on page 3: “On how to make housing affordable, the real solution is for wages to grow faster than inflation. You can cut spending and save but if inflation is eroding the value of the money you’ve saved, you’re in a losing battle. Inflation makes you look foolish in saving money for a down payment as the real value of your money in your savings account keeps decreasing while the price of houses keep going up.”

Do you have a better answer or restatement of the problem?