Clearly this discussion has divided the crowd. Armchair qb’s vs everybody lived so it’s all good.

Here is my question trying to split the middle. If you were the training officer on the the next class of officers for Whosville and this tape landed in your lap as training material what would be stressed as the right and wrongs of that officers actions? Clearly any scenario is valuable to learn both positive and negatives.

This discuss has degenerated into name calling. Pointing no fingers as I clearly have been guilty of this myself in the past.

Getting past the two very diametric sides is anyone willing to start breaking down the actual event into teachable moments? I’ll start. She grabbed/reacted to that gun in her face very quickly. It saved her life. She didn’t allow herself (not the best physical shape it seemed) to become over powered. Once again saved her life. I have always been taught vocalizing orders, commands etc can have a great effect on humans. She did that continuosly and it had a positive effect. It certainly enhanced the reaction of her backup to the threat.

On the other hand I think more coherent or directive commands/yelling might have had a better effect. Maybe not though. The retreating to the back of the vehicle seemed like a reasonable idea. Going forward as suggested earlier seems counter intuitive and bad tactically in my mind. Eventually the gun might have come loose and having space to draw and engage might be a good tactic. With the benefit of officer shooting forward and bad guy trying to shoot behind him. Love to hear some practical thoughts on that.

Once again, not trying to armchair quarterback anything but attempting to derive lessons, good and bad, beyond everybody went home except the guy who shouldn’t which is the desired outcome. I have seen some fuckedup shit that turned out well, doesn’t mean I would do it the same way next time.

What say you keyboard and actual experts?

It was impressive that she reacted fast enough to grab the gun but she was so lucky that the idiot put the pistol outside of the car. All he had to do was raise the gun, point and shoot and the entire outcome would have been different.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
From an academic standpoint, this video will be in circulation for many years to come to serve as a "what not to do" example. The officer may have "done good" but she forced much of her reaction by extremely poor, and lazy officer safety tactics. Had the officer actually received training, or followed the training she was given, this would not have happened. She is the product of poor, or nonexistent training, or she just doesn't care enough to pay attention.

The idea that you can either be smart or strong, this is what strong looks like. She violated so many principles of conducting traffic stops that her poor decisions put her in the fight of her life. Lots of officers are killed/assaulted because they are just this sloppy and look like food.

I care not about the whole "how many guns have you had stuck in your face". I really don't. I am more interested in the guns that I found after the fact because my traffic stop tactics never gave the turd the chance to use them.

This. I decided long ago that I wasn't going to participate in these discussions because they are pointless. But I agree with Jones. This video will never be used as to how to conduct a proper traffic stop. It MAY be used as a demonstration as to tenacity and staying in the fight but that's about it. This btw way was not a traffic stop, this was a suspicious man call on an isolated back road out in the boonies. Lakemoor is a small suburb of Chicago out in Lake County. It is a small, sleepy little town where nothing usually happens. While she wrote down the plate as she approached the vehicle, she never called it in. Had she called it in and waited for a response from the dispatcher she would obviously been made aware of what she really had. Then she positions herself in an incorrect manner as she approached the vehicle and allows herself to become distracted by him giving her a piece of paper. While I give her an "A" for staying in the fight and not running away, had it not been for her backup, we would be attending another funeral. IMO everything else in this video except the shot by her backup reeks with failure. And no, I am not speaking here as an armchair commando. BTDT. I learned a long time ago while paranoia is never any good, I assume that when I stop or approach a car that the occupant of that car is going to try to harm me and I act accordingly. Be prepared. I see far too many lackadaisical approaches to cars and people these days. And IMHO that was the first mistake. As JJ said, there's other things that I saw and don't like but I'm not going to pile on.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Bulldog7972,

I'm not getting into how she got into this predicament except to say that if you police long enough, you will find yourself in such a situation on occasion. Most times you'll walk away with whatever it was being uneventful and think "well that wasn't a very good way to do that." Sometimes you won't.

She did exactly what I have been trained to do in that scenario... Attack their weapon first. She has a fraction of a second to do SOMETHING...freeze, surrender, duck, go left, go right... something. Attacking the weapon when it is close enough to grab makes the most sense to me. Trying to smash that arm on the B pillar would be what I hoped to accomplish. A lot easier as a weapon retention drill than against a real life, motivated attacker. If you succeed in driving his arm into the B pillar, he drops the gun involuntarily most of the time. All of the body mechanics are against him. It's part of the reason you're also taught not to extend the gun past a hard edge like that, but I digress.

She screamed. So what? Somebody asked what you're "trained" to do there. Nothing. Nobody is training cops to scream or don't scream or give commands or whisper at the top of their lungs in that scenario, they're teaching them to fight. She fought. She got to where she thought she could disengage and tried to get on the radio. I think we over-teach people to verbalize. We get them to talk talk talk talk talk. Then, when it's time to shoot...they verbalize. Kyle Dinkheller. Stripping away all of the alleged back stories (many of which are supposed to be false), the one thing I know that I see when I watch that video is a whole hell of a lot of talking when he could be shooting. I see it again and again in force on force, FATS, and in practice: no force is used while the officer is giving commands. Even repeated, ignored commands. Even in the face of escalations of force and danger by the suspect.

The only thing I WISH she would have done, right there, is stay engaged with the support hand, draw and fire through the door with the other. It's obvious from 20 feet back, weeks later, with a profile view. I guarantee you it wasn't as obvious from twenty inches and in the moment. I'm sure she can see it now and it's obvious. I'm just positive it wasn't obvious then.

You run that scenario a thousand times with experienced cops and have them back up, half of them try to talk him to death. Most do something less effective and less safe than attacking the weapon.

My opinion is based on fifteen years of policing and twelve years of teaching use of force related topics.

While I'm sure she could have done things better (as pointed out by some of the LEOs in this thread), to all the armchair QBs / REMFs who have never had their blood pressure spike in a life or death situation, then start swinging for your life on brain stem power, this quote seems appropriate.

Here is the back story to this incident. Apparently he was on drugs, wanted for murder, had a shit load of guns in the woods, and that he actually pulled the trigger, but it did not fire.

https://www.chicagotribune.com...-20190108-story.html

quote:

Originally posted by Sig209:

soldiers screaming in the face of immediate danger is not acceptable

Huge difference between stoic conduct in the face of danger and the reality of responses in a face to face in contact fight for your life.

I'm certain that the majority of 'soldiers' you reference would have vocal responses in a similar situation.

But then again, if you'd every been in a similar situation, you'd know that.

quote:

Originally posted by oddball:
Here is the back story to this incident...he actually pulled the trigger, but it did not fire.

Wowza.

Considering that she had backup, using both her hands to try and control the weapon as opposed to using only one, and trying to draw, makes sense in my non-LEO opinion. Lose the fight for the gun and it becomes a shootout, if you're lucky. Keep the gun from being pointed at you for several seconds and your backup has time to respond, as we saw.

I've seen plenty of videos with male officers screaming in a similar pitch/tone.

In this case I wonder why her partner took so long to engage and why he wasn't closer to the incident. If he had just arrived he clearly was well timed.

If you look at some versions of this video, the backup officer takes the bad guy out with a headshot, POW you see a hole appear right in the scumbag's forehead!

quote:

Originally posted by rusbro:

quote:

Originally posted by oddball:
Here is the back story to this incident...he actually pulled the trigger, but it did not fire.

Wowza.

Considering that she had backup, using both her hands to try and control the weapon as opposed to using only one, and trying to draw, makes sense in my non-LEO opinion. Lose the fight for the gun and it becomes a shootout, if you're lucky. Keep the gun from being pointed at you for several seconds and your backup has time to respond, as we saw.

The first gun was unloaded. The second gun is the one that was loaded.

Guys she is fucking useless. If you see it any other way... check your glasses. Utterly fucking useless. I hope she finds another line of work. Yesterday. So tired of these wanna be female cops that like to dress up and play officer.

I'm not a LEO or former operator. I'm not entitled to have a policing opinion on how this went down. But this is an internet forum, so here goes: Based on what I've read, it appears she made some poor decisions, had a great instinctual reaction to grab the gun, and screamed hysterically until back-up eliminated the threat. I am, however, very, very glad that the good guys/girls won.

Here's my take:

You could have fooled me that she was panicking because I think that was what she was trying to make the shooter think.

Listen to what she was saying. She was saying things to think he had the upper hand while all the while fighting for the gun.

And as the screaming? What more effective way to get the other officer's attention and to distract the shooter?

You got to work with what you got. She did. Successfully.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig209:

quote:

Originally posted by Kevbo:
Why? Because she was screaming? She saw the threat and controlled the gun until backup arrived. Knowing that she couldn’t draw her own she got in the fight and stayed in the fight until the fight was won...

I’d argue a hell of a lot of people would have gotten their ticket punched right there because they wouldn’t or couldn’t react like she did...

Control the gun, stay in the fight, fight to win...

quote:

Originally posted by Sig209:
she might want to find another line of work

----------------------------------

yes the screaming is unprofessional and not otherwise indicative of presence of mind and a high level of proficiency

the phrase 'get off the X' comes to mind and of course open fire at the threat of deadly force

look at how calm her partner was - that is the objective standard

if her partner had not intervened - the result would not likely have been in her favor

-----------------------------------

I’m with Kevbo, she did good. We just reviewed this video in my departments use of force training tonight. She saw the threat, closed, controlled it and stayed in the fight.

Her partner wasn’t engaged in a sudden struggle over a gun literally against his body against a likely physically stronger opponent.

It’s so common to see males in a use of force; it doesn’t sound familiar or “correct” to hear a woman in a fight for her life. The idea that she didn’t “sound professional” while engaged in that kind of struggle when your heart rate jumps from resting to over 220 bpm in seconds is bullshit.


As for “get off the X”, it has its place, this isn’t it.
In a study done of that exact scenario (gun presented while the officer is at the window), the scenario was repeated 100 times with different officers. 96 of the officers “got off the X”, retreated behind the pillar and engaged. Only 4 officers closed and fought over the gun. Of all the scenarios the 96 officers who got off the X took rounds from the offender. The only officers who did not were the 4 who closed and fought.

I always find it amusing how oeople who have never suited up, put on a badge, done a. Traffic stop and worked a shift are so full of criticism in cases like this. If you haven’t, does it mean youmare not entitled to an opinion? Of course not. It does mean your opinion is pretty much worthless.

Officers in these situations don’t get advanced warning that this stop or this the call is the one where the guy is going to try to kill you. Officers police day in and day out, week after week, year after year, with moments of pure terror thrown in with no warning. Was this pretty? No it wasn’t. Were the tactics perfect, nope. However, the officer reacted, took action and stayed in the fight until the fight was over and is alive because of it. So what if she screamed and so what if it sounded like a girly scream instead of straight up Full Metal Jacket war cry. It was likely a combination of surprise, fear, and reaching down inside to harness what it takes to fight or die. If she was alone, would she have prevailed? Maybe not, but it doesn’t make her less of a cop,because she needed help. Many a male officer is “saved” by a partner.

To the people that think she should have controlled the gun with one hand and drawn and shot with the other, welll, they likely have never fought for their life over a loaded gun with someone intent on killing you. I wonder how many of these armchair critics have had an adrenaline dump so severe that you had to deal with the physiological effects while still thinking, acting and reacting.

I would love to see all the armchair QB’s that think they could do it better participate in some perception reaction training which would unequivocally demonstrate just how fast you can get behind the curve when dealing with someone who is armed and intent on taking your life. Tactics are important to help minimize the risk, and indeed, her tactics could have been better, but she fought hard, persevered in the face of death, and lived to fight another day. I hope that she and others learn from this video.

I’ve participated in and instructed training with simunitions in scenarios similar to this where the officer KNEW it was about to go down, but still performed worse than this. I’ve seen Mr. buff, tactical, super fit guy squeel, run instead of fight, use incredibly poor tactics or forget about trained tactics all together or just plain give up. That type of instantly applied stress is an incredible thing and people react differently. At the end of the day, any deadly force scenario where the good guys survive and can learn from it is a success. This incident is no different.

Skip to 2:20 on this one.
Scratch another pillbilly.



Link to original video: https://youtu.be/6B22t-OmErA

I’ll just say that you can no more tell me exactly what you would have done six months ago than you can tell me exactly what you would do in the same situation five minutes from now. In another time and place what she did might not have worked, however that’s asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. What she did wasn’t pretty, but it worked and I think she did alright.

Screaming like a little grl is not something the pubic wants to see from police officers. To deny this is to be dishonest. Plain and simple- if you cannot acknowledge that people don't want to see officers of the law screaming like a little girl, you are not being honest.

Furthermore, there are countless people who think that women should not be police officers in the field and that women who are in the military should not be allowed anywhere near a battefield.

Now, go ahead and evince shock, and tell us again how this woman had a game plan in that encounter. She could be a dispatcher, perhaps. An auxilliary officer, something like that.

Oh, and I've never worn a police uniform or a badge, so you can make remarks about that, rather than acknowledging the truth of the matter, which is that only male police officers should be allowed in the field.


Ooooh, shocking! Harsh!

Ask yourself this question. If it was you that were involved in this, would you want your family to see this video? I know I wouldn't.