It is always frustrating to me how "black and white" the inevitable responses to videos like this are. Either negative "needs a new line of work" or all positive "outstanding," "she made it home" etc.

If we are just looking at them for entertainment....then I guess it doesn't matter. I think one of the best traits we can have as humans is the ability to learn from others, both good and what works (so we don't have to re-invent the wheel) and the bad so we don't make their mistakes. Nothing wrong with that, in the Army we after action review every operation. Any decent training course should hand out course critiques to their students...

Nobody is perfect with a perfect response to a critical incident, we can all glean both positive and negative takeaways from our own performance and that of others. We should if we want to improve. Nothing wrong with a valid after action review of an incident.

On the positive side here, she had great reflexes and immediately deflected the gun. She then maintained physical contact keeping him from shooting her until backup arrived.

For what she needs to improve; typically I'd go into detail here, but in this case I'll keep it general. Overall, mindset! I'd bet $ she never really (deep down) thought this could happen to her and wasn't mentally prepared. If she wants to stay a cop, she needs to seek out realistic and challenging training (even if on her own time/dime) and develop the mindset of a "gunfighter" like her partner had. She's alive because he was there, I don't see her prevailing if he hadn't drilled the perp when he did, she was seconds away from losing it.

Glad she made it and this is a great visual reminder of how tough and dangerous LE can be and how fast it can all go down.

I'm glad they are OK.... I hope that it hurt like a mother fucker for shit bag!


ARman

If that is what it has become to make a traffic stop, there needs to be a better proceedure so some scum bag cant shoot a Police Officer. This kind of thing seems to be happening regularly. Maybe 1 Officer to do the ticketing and 1 standing fast ready to draw his weapon. I cant believe a person could do that to a Officer on the road side. Twisted bastard right there. Got what he earned.

My olny question concerns the 2nd officer.

Why did he run all the way up to the car and then reach over to shoot through the open window?

I am assuming that he was still processing the scene but I expected him to draw his gun sooner and shoot through the windshield. Was it a matter of angles and friendly fire?

quote:

Originally posted by az4783054:
I agree. If you haven't personally experienced it and lived to tell about it, you have no idea what you'd actually have done. Anyone that would criticize that officers reaction is foolish. She reacted, backup reacted, bad guy 10-7.

Yeah, with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight and a comfortable perch in front of the computer, I can think of things I'd hope I might have done differently, but not having been there I got nothing to say about how it went down other than I can't argue a bit with the result.

quote:

Originally posted by SpinZone:
My olny question concerns the 2nd officer.

Why did he run all the way up to the car and then reach over to shoot through the open window?

I am assuming that he was still processing the scene but I expected him to draw his gun sooner and shoot through the windshield. Was it a matter of angles and friendly fire?

With his partner in contact with the target and a bit of back and forth moving around, I guess he wanted to be absolutely sure that he wasn't going to hit his partner and he was going to stop the threat. Re-watching it a few times just from when he runs up and his gun comes into view, it looked pretty good to me. I'm not sure he could have brought the gun up much sooner without risking covering his partner. If you watch, the gun comes up smoothly, hands coming together, the gun goes off, and things settle down. If it were a training video, I am not sure what the instructor would find to criticize with his performance. It looked smooth and competent to me.

quote:

Originally posted by SpinZone:
My olny question concerns the 2nd officer.

Why did he run all the way up to the car and then reach over to shoot through the open window?

I am assuming that he was still processing the scene but I expected him to draw his gun sooner and shoot through the windshield. Was it a matter of angles and friendly fire?

Windshield would cause deflection on the round. Shooting through an open window was better and sure fight stopper.

I have heard men scream like that in similar encounters.

I'm not gonna break her balls.

Glad the game ended as it did.

Glad the result was good guys 1, bad guy 0.

Also, I'm damn sure I'd be screaming at the top of my lungs if I were in that situation. It wouldn't sound manly, either. She fought like hell and survived, and I'm glad for it.

Rather than quote a bunch of different post, I'll address them all at once.

1. Her positioning: This wasn't at the beginning of the contact, we have no idea how that went...but it is interesting that it was a head-on vehicle stop. This was obviously mid-way through the stop as she was already on the radio running checks and had requested documents.

You can't really blade off while receiving paperwork, controlling your light and using your radio.

2. Her reaction: she was distracted because he had just handed her paperwork and she was looking at it while he smoothly produced a gun with the other hand. Her immediate reaction was to used her strong hand to push the muzzle away from her...pretty good reaction. During the fight, she used her support hand to reach for her radio to call for more help when her cover officer didn't react (in her mind) quickly enough

One of the things not working in her favor was leverage. The BG didn't extend the gun very far out the window and easily pulled it back in. His window wasn't completely down which hurt her CG as they fought over the gun.

There is no Macho when you're fighting over a drawn gun. No calm, "I could use some help over here", no silent prying of the BG's hand open, no "force of will" to overcome the BG. What there is, is a lot of very loud screaming to attract attention that you need some help.

When watching it the first time, from the car camera, I at first thought she was by herself. When I saw the second officer come up, I wondered what took him so long. It wasn't until I saw the view from his body-cam that I realized that he really came up as fast as he could. I can only imagine how long it seemed to her as she fought over the gun.

Having been in those types of situations, I think she did a pretty good job

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
I have heard men scream like that in similar encounters.

does that make it right - or professional ?

my only point is - if a person is a professional cop - and your first reaction is prolonged blood-curdling SCREAMING when someone points a weapon at you - is that the 'correct' response?

do they teach that at the academy - male or female?

and I am not talking about an immediate surprise 'OH SHITTT' type exclamation - or pain yelling after being shot

soldiers screaming in the face of immediate danger is not acceptable

of course I am glad she survived and the bad guy got what he deserved


-----------------------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
I have heard men scream like that ....

“Screaming is the difference between combat and training.”
— Ranger Keni Thomas, “The Real Story of Blackhawk Down,” The History Channel, 5 March 2006.

One of my indelible memories from my tour in Vietnam is of hearing screaming.

Men LEOs frequently scream; anyone who has watched any of many videos of such engagements has heard it if they were paying the slightest attention.

And screaming can actually be a useful defensive tactic. More than one self-defense guru has pointed out that appearing to be cowed by an attack can lessen aggression (in the right circumstances, of course), and that’s even more likely to be effective during an attack by a man on a woman when hard-wired responses become more likely. A person’s screaming in one’s face is also a distraction that can divert the attacker’s thoughts about what he’s going to do.
Did she do it on purpose for those reasons? We have no way of knowing, but it’s possible.
Did it have any effect on the attacker? We have no way of knowing, but it’s possible.
Even if it served no useful purpose, what possible harm did it do to her? Quick now: Ten minutes for a rational explanation. (Other than to her reputation among the keyboard krowd.)

As for the training value of critiquing or even criticizing another’s actions in a particular incident, it can certainly be valid and useful, but a number of things are necessary. The most important is knowing the entire sequence of events and circumstances that preceded the few seconds that are presented in the video. Unfortunately, however, that obvious truth escapes many of the keyboard critics of such events. How many times have we seen preliminary reports of something or a fragment of a video scene that brought the know-it-alls out of the woodwork, only to gain a fuller picture of the incident sometime after and then never see another word from that crowd of the usual ignoramuses? And how many such people learn anything from their experiences and exercise a little caution before rendering judgment about the next such incident?

Grabbing the gun was gutsy. She's a fighter.

That shot by the other officer was impressive. Based on the blood, it looked like he hit the head dead-center. Perfect kill shot with zero chance of return fire.

Nice work by both officers. I'm glad they survived and that they removed a threat to civil society permanently.



.

I didn't see if he was a backup or partner?

County and city patrols both are single officer units here... she would have been very lucky to have survived.

I have a fundamental "just seeking to understand" question...why would the female officer not simply "escape" to the rear of the vehicle as soon as the realization set in that there was a firearm in her face and get out of the way of the drawn weapon by the soon-to-be corpse? If I've seen the video correctly, Mr. Corpse had his right arm free at some point in the struggle right before her partner arrived with gun blazing. As a non-LEO, I'm just trying to comprehend all that went on...

I won’t say one thing bad about her reaction. Or the backup.

I will say that those of you who are tooling up on her for screaming, you need to go sign up p and put on a badge and then one night maybe get a gun shoved in your face.Remembering that 99.9% of the time the cops have to REACT to a situation,. Ask any 911 operators. You could always tell if the shit had gone south when you had no idea who was screaming on the radio.

Most cops go thru a career w/o having a truly life threatening ituation happen. I will say that when it happens, it’s quick, so you have to play a game with yourself, what if...what if this driver pulls a gun, what if this guy takes a swing at me, what if this woman swings that mop at me...

And you had better have a second plan, and a third plan...

So, if you have never had a gun shoved in your face and had to deal with that, remember, she may not have either...but in my mind she did just fine...I’d buy her a beer any day

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
I have heard men scream like that in similar encounters.

I'm not gonna break her balls.

Glad the game ended as it did.

This for sure^^^

The screaming is hard to listen to, and sounds like a victim. Many people will see this as weakness or unprofessionalism. That's simply not the case. This is a woman fighting for her very existence, her life, or maybe more importantly her chance to go home to her husband and children.

This is pure primeval survival. While her training may not be perfect (I'm in no way qualified to judge), it resulted in victory and her life. Style points don't count.

If faced with the most basic survival situation, many of you badasses will revert to primeavel screams and suffer from crazy combination of adrenaline dump and firing receptors.

Don't judge her, thank her for showing up, trying, and surviving.

quote:

Originally posted by erj_pilot:
I have a fundamental "just seeking to understand" question...why would the female officer not simply "escape" to the rear of the vehicle as soon as the realization set in that there was a firearm in her face and get out of the way of the drawn weapon by the soon-to-be corpse? If I've seen the video correctly, Mr. Corpse had his right arm free at some point in the struggle right before her partner arrived with gun blazing. As a non-LEO, I'm just trying to comprehend all that went on...

Ever been well and truly terrified? Sometimes the answer to “why” is simply “because.” If she’d tried to run at the beginning I truly think she’d be dead. Grabbing that gun saved her life. At the end I think both she and he were focused on the second officer. While they were trying to get their brains to disengage from what had been a struggle in a two person universe and figure out what the second officer’s existence meant to their situation, he resolved the problem by shooting the scumbag in the face. Happily he did this before said scumbag was able to decide which officer to shoot at first.

Again. 20 years as a cop. 10 as a training officer. She screamed because she was scared. She was scared because she was fighting for her life. She fought. Most people don’t. I’ll take a screaming fighter over someone who silently freezes every time. Courage doesn’t mean you aren’t scared. Courage is handling your business despite being terrified. Screaming may be what draws the help you need. No shame in it.

quote:

Originally posted by erj_pilot:
[W]hy would the female officer not simply "escape" to the rear of the vehicle ...?

That’s a good question and I’ll be interested to see any responses from any other (knowledgeable) people, but my first thought is that people react to sudden and unexpected violence in different ways. Based on my prior experiences I probably would have tried moving back and off line while drawing my weapon. But that wouldn’t necessarily have been the best action. If we’re close enough to grab and deflect the other guy’s gun, that would be faster and would not leave the officer exposed to gunfire as she’s moving away. One of the things LEOs are taught (or should be) is to not stick their guns out in someone’s face during a contact distance encounter.

But to join the keyboard kritics krowd, I’m almost certain that if I’d grabbed someone’s gun like that with one hand, I wouldn’t have been operating my radio with the other. It’s been pointed out for decades that a common mistake LEOs make is seeking the security of calling for help rather than doing what’s best for fighting back and/or moving to cover. Again, though, if someone has called for help countless times as the best thing to do in dangerous situations, it wouldn’t be surprising if that’s what he/she defaults to even if it might not be the best action.

quote:

Originally posted by copaup:
She fought. Most people don’t. I’ll take a screaming fighter over someone who silently freezes every time. Courage doesn’t mean you aren’t scared. Courage is handling your business despite being terrified. Screaming may be what draws the help you need. No shame in it.

That is very succinct...no shame at all