And then they wonder why auto makers outsource assembly work. Talk about killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.

I hate to nitpick, but...

quote:

Originally posted by gjgalligan:
And without unions all the factories would be sweat shops and the middle class as we know it would not exist.
Unions have their faults but they also have done some good things, worker safety being one of the big items.
I started in the auto industry in 1969 and retired in 2012 and saw a lot of change in that time. Some good, some bad. Walked the picket lines a few times over the years.

Your opening salvo is a bit overly dramatic there. Further, it's the 21st century, and worker safety is ALWAYS a priority. Even if the employers didn't care about their employees (and they most certainly do!) potential litigation all but assures that 'Safety is Job One'! Plus it costs WAY too much to train skilled workers, so employers have a built in incentive to protect their investment.

quote:

To just totally condemn unions is like saying human rights don't exist.

Again, WAY overly dramatic...We simply don't have a 'human rights problem' in the U.S. There was a time and a place for labor unions (like the early to mid 1900s!) but they have long outlived their usefulness and provedly so with their what we see for contract demands as of late.

quote:

When you think of unions think of what they are. Groups of people that gather as a team to improve their life in certain areas.

It seems more and more, it's 'really' all about the Union, and about the Union extorting the employer. In certain cases, it culminates in extorting them out of existence! 46% pay raise + COLA, 32-hour work week, mandatory employee retention when the employee's position/labor is NO longer part of the manufacturing process...All of that is simply unreasonable, if not fantasy!

I didn't say the unions were perfect, they have their faults.

Quote:
Your opening salvo is a bit overly dramatic there. Further, it's the 21st century, and worker safety is ALWAYS a priority. Even if the employers didn't care about their employees (and they most certainly do!) potential litigation all but assures that 'Safety is Job One'! Plus it costs WAY too much to train skilled workers, so employers have a built in incentive to protect their investment.

Well if you were to study the history of the labor unions they were the ones that started the quest for safety on the job.
SOMEBODY had to start the ball rolling to get to where it is today.

The better wages, benefits, and working conditions started the competition that caused ALL employers to treat their workers better.
Again, SOMEBODY had to start the ball rolling.

Re cola: that has been a fact for years. I am not really up on the labor contracts after 2012 (when I retired) maybe they lost in one of them. A good share of my time at GM I got cola.

I will politely disagree with your "overly dramatic" comment as I truly believe what I have said.

I think we have a lot of new laborers from south of the border the regime has encouraged to come here and who would be happy to work in these factories for plenty less than the current UAW folks are making.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
For some reason, the phrase "Suck it" comes to mind.

Not sure why...

Amen to that!

quote:

Originally posted by Lord Vaalic:
The UAW have been lap dogs to the democrats forever, so reap it you dumb asses.

I can't tell you how many union fools I've argued with over the years on the plant floor who try and lecture me on why they support the dems. I've been telling them for decades, you imbeciles are voting for people who are actively campaigning and working to put you out of a job.

And these people will line up to vote Biden again...

Agreed. Even gun people I know would vote dem if the union told them to.
I used to live in a region with a high concentration of auto industry, and my gun club had a high percentage of UAW workers, and some would sheepishly admit they fell lock step into place with the union in regards to politics.

Many would feel personal insult if you drove a “foreign car”
Even though I could point to a sticker and show them the “ foreign car “ assembled in an American plant had a higher percentage of US part content than the “domestic “ car line they worked for.

Then the argument was, well all those profits go overseas, they don’t stay in America. Shows a fundamental lack of understanding of international business practices.

Well, ( next argument) those aren’t union workers!
And every time UAW tries to strong union factories into joining UAW they get turned away.

quote:

Stellantis

I had to look that one up. Must have happened while I was watching a squirrel or looking at something shiny.

Those demands are crazy. 46% increase in pay for 20% fewer hours?

Defined benefit retirement plans? As if pension costs aren't already killing the automakers.

Unions used to be about "an honest day's pay for an honest day's work." I guess those were the good old days. Now it's just a money grab. I get the concerns about the transition to EVs but the unions should be protesting that transition, which is going to likely bankrupt at least one of the Big 3, if not all of them,. Trying to demand 6 days of pay for 4 days of work is not the answer.

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
^^^Well, re: the 'EV take over' dictated the enlightened leftists in charge, this bears repeating...

quote:

these automakers are selling EVs at a giant loss. As an example, Ford currently loses about -$30k per Mustang Mach-E manufactured and are likely years away from consistent profitability if sales grow. However, so far this year, Ford is experiencing days-on-hand of inventory 100+ days, significantly above the industry average of 60, signaling poor demand.

Ford recently dropped prices to increase sales, which will likely cause them to lose more money per vehicle, at least in the short term in the hopes sales increase dramatically.

I will drop this here. I guess I got a heck of a deal on my Mustang Mach E. I didn't buy it to save the planet. I bought it because I like the MME.




and Unions suck!

https://www.cbsnews.com/detroi...-thursdays-deadline/

As the strike deadline quickly approaches, the UAW and the Big Three are continuing to negotiate.

The UAW is now demanding a 36% pay raise from General Motors, Ford and Stellantis, but the automaker's counteroffers have all been rejected.

This could cause the UAW's first simultaneous strike against the three Detroit automakers.

In an interview with ABC's Good Morning America, Fain dismissed the idea a potential strike would harm the economy as a whole.

"The price of vehicles went up 30%. In the last four years, CEO pay went up 40%. In the last four years, worker pay went up 6%. We're not the problem," Fain said.

Instead, he suggests it would affect the "Billionaire Economy" and points out disparities in wealth and income.

He argues workers deserve better compensation and working conditions. From the start of contract talks, the union is demanding a 46 percent pay raise over four years.

Speaking on CNBC's Squawk Box, Fain said they're still fighting to get to that number.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-66803278

With current labour contracts set to expire on Thursday night, the United Autoworkers Union said the companies had not put forward acceptable offers.

The fight threatens to trigger higher prices for buyers and major disruption for the firms: GM, Ford and Stellantis.

The UAW said the likely strike would start on Friday at a small number of sites - with the potential to expand.

"We are seeing movement from the companies, but they're still not willing to agree on the kinds of raises that will make up for inflation on top of decades of falling wages," UAW president Shawn Fain said on Wednesday in an update to workers.

Talks between the two sides, which kicked off in July, were tense from the start, with Mr Fain forgoing the symbolic handshake with executives that has traditionally launched negotiations.

The three companies have upped their initial proposals, with Ford offering a 20% hike in pay over the contract term, GM offering 18%, and Stellantis, the owner of Jeep and Chrysler, 17.5%, Mr Fain said.

He said the companies could afford to be more generous, after years of record profits.

Mr Fain, who was elected to his position just a few months ago promising to take on the companies, cast the fight in biblical terms, saying it was part of a broader battle with the billionaire class and an act of faith that change was possible.

Fire them all, It wouldn't take too long to fill those low skill, high paying jobs

quote:

Originally posted by BigSwede:
Fire them all, It wouldn't take too long to fill those low skill, high paying jobs

Would that it were that simple: Can You Be Fired for Going On Strike?

TL;DR: You can't do that.

It'll be interesting to see what the not-so-big-anymore-3 do about this. What the UAW is demanding is a large part of the reason GM and Chrysler had to be bailed out in 2008, and Ford was teetering on the edge.

If the "Detroit" automakers yield, as has traditionally been their short-sighted response, they'll only put themselves right back where they'd put themselves in the decades leading up to their near-demise in 2008.

IMO they should never have been bailed-out. This behavior by the UAW is one prime example of why.

As someone whose had 60+ union grievances filed against me, I'll just say they are hardly a model of efficiency.

The last few grievances revolved around me opening a control panel for maintenance purposes, with a multi-tool screw driver, instead of waiting for the union reps to decide which shop was supposed to have already showed up 30 minutes prior to do it for me...

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
The UAW strategy was to pick one of the Big 3 and strike - because the production and finanical losses relative to the other two would be massive. This encouraged a quick settlement by the one they struck. Then that contract was shopped to the other two and they usually agreed to it to avert strikes.

Having a monopoly on labor in the industry allowed the UAW to essentially destroy the companies they work for. The Big 3 have moved a lot to Mexico and Canada to get away from the UAW.

But the UAW doesn't have all the new auto plants in the south built by Japanese, Korean, and German automakers. So all they are doing is ensuring the Big 3 will be less competitive and eventually die off.

I watched the UAW strike Navistar International in 2007 when they had no leverage. Within 6 months almost all production was moved to non-union plants in the south and most of the UAW workers were out of a job.

They found quickly that warehouses only pay $14/hour to drive a forklift while Navistar paid $26/hour. They thought they were "getting screwed" because Ford and Chrysler had slightly better pay. But they failed to realize that over the years their representation negotiated for what the members wanted - like minimal mandatory overtime (max 9 hour days, and max 2 Saturdays out of 3, and no Sundays or holidays) in lieu of a higher wage. Ford paid more per hour, but you can be forced 7/12 for two weeks, with every other weekend off provided you work all assigned hours. When I explained this they said "I didn't know", they just believed whatever the union told them.

The UAW propaganda I found in break areas literally sounded like it was still the 1930's and FDR was the greatest president ever.

Interesting fact - The People's Republic of China does not permit labor unions and collective bargaining. "Labor Unions" there are more like social clubs with team building activities, which of course are endorsed buy the CCP party representatives to encourage obedience and "social harmony". So the wealthy industrialists can keep labor costs down, and make themselves richer.

Very well said Lefty!

quote:

Originally posted by stoic-one:
The last few grievances revolved around me opening a control panel for maintenance purposes, with a multi-tool screw driver, instead of waiting for the union reps to decide which shop was supposed to have already showed up 30 minutes prior to do it for me...

Hahaha!

That brings back memories.

Job-before-last was a company that did automation stuff--primarily for the auto industry. We did this one highly-technical project for one of the Big (at the time) Three, in a new, highly-modernized plant they were putting together.

I spent a lot of time on the floor as that plant launched.

There were times I'd go to do something and somebody'd say something like "You can't do that!" "Why not?" I'd ask. "Something, something, something, union yadda yadda yadda." "I don't have time for that bullshit. I got work to do," and carry on.

They learned to leave me alone

quote:

They learned to leave me alone

Same, over time.

I do contract engineering and charge by the hour. Not only are you wasting the union guys time, I'm billing at $100+ per hour to stand around doing nothing waiting on them, nope.

The stupidity of some of the grievances I experienced in my day was astounding. One in particular comes to mind which involved moving an employee's desk a half foot. The union was protesting that I hadn't engaged them in a dialogue about making this move with them before doing so. Asshats.
Never lost any.

I've been in complete violation of their "rules" plenty of times, I just got where I didn't care. All too many of their "rules" are straight up stupid.

Yes the unions had a purpose... 90 years ago. I'm tired of hearing that response that we owe benefits, overtime, safety to unions. maybe we do, but that was a long time ago.

I have spent 30 years now in the industry. Worked all over, did a LOT of travel. I have no use for the UAW. I could type for an hour about the stupidity I have seen.

And by the way, you have no concern for all the suppliers and associated employees to the auto industry who will be screwed by your petty demands and strike. And you don't like the 2 tier system? You voted for it you idiots.

The Chinese car manufacturers are coming, and coming hard. They already have a huge presence in Mexico and South America and they are starting in Europe. You had best focus on being competitive because you are slitting your own short sighted throats.

That's the truth, they killed the competitiveness of the US automakers, and are oblivious to it.

It's ok though, the automakers (Ford, GM, Chrysler) helped them do it to themselves.