quote:

Originally posted by prj:
Respectfully, I acquired a beautiful P225 and stumbled upon this forum a decade ago(!) looking for information on the gun and brand. I peruse other threads, and particularly enjoy the photo section. I've sourced information about said gun, and other various components reading here.

And yet, you don't want to discuss firearms. All you want to do is look down your snooty nose at we, the great unwashed.

quote:

The fishin’ is pretty good today…

I just can't believe I had a misspelled name in my signature for YEARS, and never noticed. Plus, the one liberal who only posts ~20 times in 11 years is the only one to say something?

You guys let me down... lol

quote:

Originally posted by AKSuperDually:
You guys let me down... lol

Mea Culpa. Mea culpa! MEA CULPA!


...and yeah, too many turds floating to the top of the bowl for a Thursday. hehehehehehe

I think a good part of the shift from liberal to conservative happens at childbirth. Prior to having children people live a relatively free life to pursue whatever dreams they have an are more altruistic. After children they have almost a single purpose in life. Make sure their kids have a better life than they did and that they live in a safe world. Most parents would take on a full grown lion to protect their children.

Second I think as people aquire things in life they tend to want to keep them.

Lastly people who have become successful or just moved up a rung or two in society look back and can see the work that got them to where they are. Just like at work, it pisses me off when people who work less than me earn the same or more than me. It's a double slap to the face when one has worked hard to achieve things and others want to take from them and give to those that haven't put in the same efforts.

Life ain’t fair.

Tough life ahead if not getting good n’ reconciled with that fact.


I’ve lost nearly everything in life, twice. God provides and I’m forever grateful. Whatever my neighbor has is of no mind to me.

quote:

Originally posted by bald1:

quote:

Originally posted by AKSuperDually:
You guys let me down... lol

Mea Culpa. Mea culpa! MEA CULPA!


...and yeah, too many turds floating to the top of the bowl for a Thursday. hehehehehehe

I was kind of taken back by that also. THIS is what has drawn out sleepers? Out of all the threads we have, this, seemingly decent discussion draws them out to commit hari kari?

This was an interesting, even better than decent, discussion. Thats why I joined in. Most have been polite and respectful, and yet, here we are, nearly answering the question in the thread title.

Dennis Prager ALWAYS says it best...

quote:

Originally posted by prj:
This was an interesting, even better than decent, discussion. Thats why I joined in. Most have been polite and respectful, and yet, here we are, nearly answering the question in the thread title.

I read between the lines quite well.

If you plan on participating in any further discussions in this forum, you need to get out whatever that is you've got stuck up your ass. You're not going to get this entire forum full of guys to come around to drinking tea with you on lace doilies. You can see who we are. It's up to you to decide if the tenor of this forum shan't bruise your delicate sensibilities. The tenor of this forum is regulated by me, and if it's too rough for you, there are many other places online where you can go.

Let's be clear on something, though- our politics are non-negotiable, so if you can't stand to be around a room full of filthy Trump supporters, you're in the wrong place.

It's up to you.

quote:

Originally posted by AKSuperDually:

quote:

Originally posted by prj:
I like Rey HRH's description of the challenge; that everyone's foundation is significantly different.

Much of the problem reconciling differing belief systems is simply a lack of contact with those of different beliefs, and a lack of face to face discussion of same. I'm guilty as well, almost no contact with members of the other political party, and unfortunately, absolutely no discussion of political topics.

Those spouting simple inanities like "liberalism is a mental disorder", or a religion, or liberals lack common sense, however many of the simplistic and trite catch phrases thrown about, obviously haven't had a discussion of a thoughtful member from the other clan. Certainly, in this forum, one is not going to materialize, and I understand that.

I'd like to think that 80% of this country could speak readily to one another, at ease, and reach either consensus on a topic, or agree to disagree on an ultimate goal based upon some preference. Lets say that 10% at each extreme may be unreachable, and dealing with beliefs not anchored in common fact or truth.

I've held that belief in the past. That if we could just listen to, and care about one another...it would bridge the gap of difference and result in a peaceful tolerance. Unfortunately, that belief is a fallacy. Mental illness isn't just a "catch phrase", it is true. I've attempted these discussions many times. Not just in internet debate with keyboard warriors, but in person. With family members, with parishioners, with classmates in graduate studies, with co-workers. My post prior to the drama here, is not just a quick internet opinion. It's a summary of my experiences over decades.

Your heart seems in the right place, it is a great thing that you believe the best about people. I think you're wrong, as a generalization.

I’ll also dissent and offer proof against as I was on the other side. I considered myself a democrat. All my friends were leftists. My dad was a hardcore union guy. However, I was able to look at myself critically. I had questions about the party platform and about myself. The questions caused friends to stop hanging out. They caused family arguments, but no answers. I did find that the conservatives had their own form of hyperbole but nothing as drastic as the left. I found the right contradicts themselves much less. I discovered that the left thrived on contradiction and even found ways to twist reality. I found that I was a horrible person. Worse than other democrats because I didn’t believe in the party but I wanted to fit in. I decided to make a change in my life and I can only hope that those that knew me before will never hold those years against me. Someone here once said “you can only have integrity once” and all I can say is that I hope that isn’t true because back then I had none.

I just wish others could see how horrible they are but they can’t. They just double down on their terrible ideas. But I cannot say they’re not intelligent. I’m becoming convinced that they’re simply evil. But I can’t condemn them because so was I.

quote:

Originally posted by Graniteguy:
There is a big difference between intelligence and wisdom. People often confuse the two.

I've heard it said before that an educated man (an intelligent man) knows that a tomato is a fruit; a wise man knows that you don't put a tomato in a fruit salad.

quote:

Someone here once said “you can only have integrity once” and all I can say is that I hope that isn’t true because back then I had none.

My foundational beliefs are based on a strong experience with and basis of, grace. All fall short basically. Anyone can be redeemed essentially. You are correct though in that integrity is NEAR impossible to regain once lost, and easily lost. I guess I'm just a believer in miracles because I've seen and experienced them. I've seen people change. It can happen.

The reason it seldom does is because it really requires a heart change. At the core of your beliefs, something has to change. I believe this principle is a good part of the discussion in this thread. Superficial change is temporary, to be permanent it has to be deep and real.

Something in our nature as humans is attracted to those who recreate themselves because of a deep, heartfelt, and genuine change in their core. When your ethics, morals, drive, and character change, it affects everything else about you. Over time, people can't help but notice a better you, and normal people will recognize the change and accept it over time.

I hope this makes sense. As mentioned in this thread earlier, it's a morality issue. It's good versus evil. We've tolerated evil in people for too long because most of us can see the shreds of "good" in others. We want them to be better, but like a drug addict, we can't enable them any longer or they have zero chance of recovery.

It's time for tough love. It's time we stand up and take responsibility as adults for the generations they're affecting. None of us can ignore this any longer, or we ourselves are culpable for standing by and allowing others to be damaged by the evil that's infected our country like a cancer. It's time to cut cancer out, and stop the garbage message of tolerance which has never been a coexist message. It's always been good compromising for evil, because evil doesn't compromise.

Fuck Cancer.

I think whenever there is a disagreement between individuals it is because one of them is missing something the other isn't. Could be information. Could be values. Could be principles. And so on. For example, my brother is a Lefty not because he's stupid, but because he thinks with his heart. I am not a Lefty because I dismiss the value of emotion when considering a subject. The more truth in a thing, the more consistent it is. Water is wet. That is pure truth. My brother would disagree, saying not when it is frozen. I would say that it is then ice. He would disagree saying ice is made of water. I would say ice only becomes wet when it melts. He would then call me a Godless heathen. End of discussion.

When I discuss a subject of consequence with him the first thing I do is superimpose a true principle over it. This should be a principle with as much consistency as possible. The first thing he does is look for the exceptions. He focuses on them passionately. He does this because he wants what he wants. The choice between Hilary and Trump was obvious to me based purely on the principles of liberty even though there was little I admired about the man personally. My brother hated Trump so much he was willing to throw his vote away on Casich or some other impossible candidate. My brother is missing something I'm not. He's not stupid. He's conflicted.

Over the years I've come to see the pattern in others. The more we have in common, the less we disagree. Sometimes all I need to do is donate that piece the other person is missing if I can determine what it is and use the Socratic method to allow them to believe it came from with in......which it usually does if they're open to true principles unconflicted by emotion. Sadly, I'm missing patience. I write people off too quickly if the path to agreement is too long. The older I get, the less time I'm willing to spend.

My brother is a lost cause because he engages in double think. He can conclude two antipodally positioned perspectives are both true. The red crayon is also blue. 2+2=4. It also equals 5 if it needs to.

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:
… He's not stupid. He's conflicted. …

Ah ha! I think you’ve cleared it up for me. That explains the old me to myself. The folly is in the inner conflict. You lit the figurative light bulb over my head.

That fits with intersectionality and made up genders. It’s not stupidity it’s conflict against reality. It fits with multimillionaires touting communism. It quite literally explains intelligent leftists. To change, they must come to terms with their intentional conflict. Their invention of oppression. Unfortunately, I think it’s not possible for those that have invested so much in opposing reality.

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:
One can be very intelligent and lack insight. It is actually quite common and part of the human condition.

It's also noted that some who are highly educated can lack any knowledge of actual physics in real life. Old Contractor jokes about the owners son working his first summer break from college and discovering the actual dynamics of hammering a nail.

Take that a generation or two down the times and you wind up having elected representatives describing a part of a firearm as "that thingy that goes up." No experience or knowledge but with a cultural/generational assumption of "we know better and you should, too" governs their actions.

In that discussion, the genuine believers on both sides just want peace for all parties. It's the manipulators who dissemble who use some arguments for their own ends.

And that is where the divergence in how to arrive at a mutually agreeable solution come to such opposite approaches. And those who want to create that divide then characterize their opponents as various kinds of non humans.

Pay attention, Democrats interviewed in recent days think those who refuse the vaxx should be rounded up in camps. Or worse.

You and I are seeing this in real time - it's not a vague academic discussion, it's live. We know now how a nation would persecute not only Japanese Americans, we also see how the Jews were rounded up for elimination. The people using the media are actually trying to create that much division for their own ends.

Look around, it's right out there.

quote:

Originally posted by AKSuperDually:

quote:

The fishin’ is pretty good today…

I just can't believe I had a misspelled name in my signature for YEARS, and never noticed. Plus, the one liberal who only posts ~20 times in 11 years is the only one to say something?

You guys let me down... lol

nah. everybody knew just didn't want to bring it up.

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:
… He's not stupid. He's conflicted. …

Ah ha! I think you’ve cleared it up for me. That explains the old me to myself. The folly is in the inner conflict. You lit the figurative light bulb over my head.

That fits with intersectionality and made up genders. It’s not stupidity it’s conflict against reality. It fits with multimillionaires touting communism. It quite literally explains intelligent leftists. To change, they must come to terms with their intentional conflict. Their invention of oppression. Unfortunately, I think it’s not possible for those that have invested so much in opposing reality.

I think you are right. To them, they want something more than reality. They prefer fantasy. Communists prefer the fantasy that Communist principles promise. The one nugget in Communism that is missing is liberty. So it doesn't work. Communism would work only if human nature were absent envy, covetousness, greed, avarice, sloth and selfishness. Then people would participate voluntarily in the principles of to each/from each and it would work. Of course with voluntary free will participation, it wouldn't be communism. It would be some other kind of order.

The only thing I've seen that can refine human nature away from selfishness, greed etc. is religion or moral instruction. Communism rejects that so it cannot work. Communists/Leftists reject morality and moral codes, yet they hie to a system that could only work with them. It's an irreconcilable conflict. It is fantasy. Fantasy, more often than not, conflicts with reality. Emotion compels the individual to choose fantasy over reality. Anyone who does that will always be surprised and disappointed by reality because reality is where we live......even if we embrace the conflict.

ETA: One who lives in fantasy too long eventually loses the ability to distinguish fantasy from reality. That is a mental disorder. And thus the phrase: Liberalism is a mental disorder. I would say Leftism is. Classic liberalism is nothing that modern liberalism/Leftism is.

quote:

Originally posted by SIGnified:

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
Apart from any ulterior motive such as simply financial benefit, the reason why intelligent people can arrive at different conclusions is because they start out with different presumptions and different hierarchies of those basic truths.

The explanation is simple math / logic. Logical conclusions are arrived at by intelligent people by making logical inferences from premises. It's a given in your problem that the conclusions are different and given that the people are equally intelligent, we can presume that each are using valid methodologies of making inferences. The only difference then that explains the different conclusions is with the remaining portion of the logical argumentation process - the premises each uses and the relative importance of each truth held by the individual.

Maybe.

Or sometimes people start with the wrong fact base, a set of inexperienced and distorted perspectives and poor critical analytical skills. (I made a small fortune from those conditions.)

" people start with the wrong fact base, a set of inexperienced and distorted perspectives" = "they start out with different presumptions and different hierarchies of those basic truths." No one consciously embraces a wrong fact base as their basic truth. Therefore, from their point of view, their presumptions are true. That their fact base may be wrong is what makes their presumptions different which therefore drives the different conclusion. The question isn't why do adults come to the wrong point, the question is why do intelligent adults differ on what should be common points.

"poor critical analytical skills" does not equal "intelligent adults" which is a given in the thread title, at least in my thinking. An intelligent adult should have reasonably good critical analytical skills. I don't see much critical analytical skills in a good number of people I debate with (not here in Sigforum); therefore, I consider a good number of people aren't intelligent adults (a state of affairs that I consider normal).

^^^ I could likely be convinced and agree with a fun chat

Co-incidentally, I resumed reading Chesterton’s “Heretics” tonight.

It’s intellectually intense, and best read in small doses, but is an eloquent example of explaining the the issues the “thinking” socialists have with reality.

There are brief addresses of the howling mob, but that’s, essentially, the same thing which attracts people to all forms of depravity.