BTW just wanted to say I'm not anti helmet or pro helmet, however I'm anti non participating people putting laws on others to satisfy their fears albeit guns, cars, skydiving, motorcycles, sex, drinking, smoking, pot, etc.

You want to wear a thong (covered I'd hope) on your rainbow crotch rocket without a helmet have spiked hair a nose ring and carry a concealed weapon legally, have at it. It's not me and doesn't concern me... ALthough I'll probably say WTF?

One other thing, in the USA the average uninsured rate of CAR drivers is 15%, in some states like Oklahoma uninsured auto drivers account for more than 26% of the drivers on the roads.

Every year there are billions of payouts from insurance companies to cover liability, property and medical expenses, there is also a societal cost for covering expenses of drunk uninsured auto drivers.

When will those on the soap box with the argument about medical expenses for motorcycles can fix the problems with their "safer better transportation choices"

I guarantee you that your transportation choice costs me a lot more money for it's drain on the medical, legal and premium costs overall than all the motorcycle accidents combined, helmeted or not, so get out of my wallet, fix your problems quit spending my tax dollars to support those problem car drivers!

Since we can't fix the problem with car drives, why would we think a solution to someone else's
problem is to further regulate that group. Is it because you won't have to comply and the regulation doesn't affect your daily life/choices so why not?

I'll echo a few people here, it simply is interesting to watch the dialog over the attack of laws on gun rights, how the democrats over regulate people, water, business, and we need to reduce regulations stand up and ask for more laws on a small segment of society that they don't belong to, because of personal fears.

Thus endeth thy rant!

quote:

Originally posted by Oldrider:
Good argument. But what was trying to be said is most car drivers do not allow the attention or legal road space that is required and due a motorcycle in the first place. They're too busy putting lipstick on, or yammering on a cell phone, or picking their nose to observe traffic and conditions. You may recognize these drivers as the ones who rear-ended you in your car, or side-swiped you because they couldn't control their car. And could care less.
By the way, it is true that experience operating a motorcycle WILL make you a more safety-conscience driver.

Except they aren't targeting you, they do that to everyone. I couldn't count the number of times I've had to slam on my brakes because someone didn't check their blind spot before changing lanes. Nor could I count the number of times that an aggressive driver shoved their car into my one to two car lengths of stopping space, often also requiring me to hit my brakes or else they would clip me. I've been run off the road three times now. The list goes on.

And this is in a mid-sized SUV, or truck with body colors that are light silver, light blue, and white. While biker color choices aren't helping things either, black is the most common color for bikes I see. Riding gear is often black or gray.

Frankly I would be safer flying an airplane serviced by a drunk Russian with a parachute packed by a blind drunk Italian, than I would be driving on the roads.

I've been riding off and on since '65' and owned around 10 bikes in that time. The only time I hit the pavement was in '72' when a woman pulled out in front of me and I laid the bike down (dumb, but I didn't know better at the time). I got pretty severe road rash and it took 6 months to heal. It's been all gear and helmet since then. It's the law here but that has nothing to do with my decision to protect myself.

The thing about drivers today is that there are far more distractions now with stereos, GPS, cell phones, etc. and more traffic than years ago. At 69 I consider myself very lucky that I haven't had any more accidents than the one. I've known two people, one a good friend, that died on bikes. Both were geared up but to no avail.

All that said, I'm thinking of selling my current bike and sticking with 4 wheels from now on. My reaction time is lower than ever before and my mind wanders when riding anymore, so it's time. No regrets. It's great way to travel and I'll miss it but I'm a realist.

As far as helmet laws are concerned, I think Gustofer said it best and I agree him. The government has no right to tell what people do with victimless activities. Read the constitution and it's explained plainly there.

Jim

quote:

Except they aren't targeting you, they do that to everyone.

Come ride with us; I guarantee you will come to feel targeted. I stay alive just because I ride like everyone is trying to kill me. I'll wager other riders on this thread (with or without helmets) will admit to that line of thought.

quote:

Originally posted by Oldrider:

quote:

Except they aren't targeting you, they do that to everyone.

Come ride with us; I guarantee you will come to feel targeted. I stay alive just because I ride like everyone is trying to kill me. I'll wager other riders on this thread (with or without helmets) will admit to that line of thought.

You may feel that way, everyone does after someone threatens your life like that. But the reality is the same type of people that hit motorcycles are the same type people that hit cars.

The only difference is that cars are more survivable.

Now of course because of the annoyance of motorcycle riders riding in larger groups often at or below the speed limit, people often have to driver aggressively to get around them. The fix for that is unpopular, but don't ride in groups larger than six people. Pull over frequently to let people pass. In general don't be douche bags, particularly on roads with only one or two lanes in each travel direction.

quote:

Originally posted by Oldrider:

quote:

Except they aren't targeting you, they do that to everyone.

Come ride with us; I guarantee you will come to feel targeted. I stay alive just because I ride like everyone is trying to kill me. I'll wager other riders on this thread (with or without helmets) will admit to that line of thought.

A fairly recent thread brought validity to this mindset.

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:

quote:

Originally posted by Oldrider:
“…everyone must ride a motorcycle for one year before getting a license to drive a 4 wheeler. I think being on 2 wheels may bring a sense awareness to serious drivers…”I also believe this.

So others must put their lives at risk because a small minority choose to ride something more dangerous than everyone else. And yet the same crew argues that they should have the right to choose not to wear a helmet.

What about the general public's desire to never have to ride something so dangerous? Shouldn't they have the right to choose as well? Because you are talking about of both sides of your mouth here.

Mandate a year of motorcycle riding along with mandated rider ed training for anyone needing a drivers license.

You would end up with drivers with an awareness of what's going on down the road and around them plus skills necessary to safely thread thru commuter traffic.

We could also trim down the population a bit.

Cars and SUV's have become idiot proof. Simply climb aboard with your big sluppy and cellphone and go at it. Just "stab it and steer" and be damned who gets in the way.

I've ridden motorcycles for over 50 years and I don't find the machine itself to be dangerous. It's the idiots around me on four wheels who give me grave concern.

quote:

Originally posted by Oldrider:
I ride like everyone is trying to kill me.

^^^ Best way to stay alive.

quote:

Originally posted by GWbiker:

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:

quote:

Originally posted by Oldrider:
“…everyone must ride a motorcycle for one year before getting a license to drive a 4 wheeler. I think being on 2 wheels may bring a sense awareness to serious drivers…”I also believe this.

So others must put their lives at risk because a small minority choose to ride something more dangerous than everyone else. And yet the same crew argues that they should have the right to choose not to wear a helmet.

What about the general public's desire to never have to ride something so dangerous? Shouldn't they have the right to choose as well? Because you are talking about of both sides of your mouth here.

Mandate a year of motorcycle riding along with mandated rider ed training for anyone needing a drivers license.

You don't address the hypocrisy, you advocate that wearing a helmet should be a choice, but you also advocate that you should be required to ride a bike, against their will, in order to get a license.

You can't have it both ways.

quote:

You would end up with drivers with an awareness of what's going on down the road and around them plus skills necessary to safely thread thru commuter traffic.

We could also trim down the population a bit.

LOL



LOL LOL LOL!

quote:

Originally posted by GWbiker:
"sigh"....the helmet use/helmet law topic......again.

And yet you took the time to respond...

I think the discussion is interesting.

Learning to ride did make me a better driver. While I would not force someone to ride a bike, I would love to see the driver's ed spend a couple hours on how to ride a motorcycle.

quote:

I've ridden motorcycles for over 50 years and I don't find the machine itself to be dangerous. It's the idiots around me on four wheels who give me grave concern.

This is exactly the way I see it. The times I ride and am not in other vehicular traffic makes it all worthwhile.

quote:

...You don't address the hypocrisy, you advocate that wearing a helmet should be a choice, but you also advocate that you should be required to ride a bike, against their will, in order to get a license.

You can't have it both ways.

My suggestion would, ready for this: Make - better - safer - motorists on the roadways.

Chew on that for a while.

quote:

Originally posted by flesheatingvirus:

quote:

Originally posted by GWbiker:
"sigh"....the helmet use/helmet law topic......again.

And yet you took the time to respond...

I think the discussion is interesting.

After 50 years of reading the same shit from people who have no desire or the ability to ride a motorcycle, but are willing to preach bikers about the dangers and helmet use, laws, etc...

I thought new ideas would be forthcoming.

NOPE, same old shit from the unknown.

quote:

Originally posted by Paragon:
Learning to ride did make me a better driver. While I would not force someone to ride a bike, I would love to see the driver's ed spend a couple hours on how to ride a motorcycle.

Unfortunately, in the past 10-15 years, Drivers ED has been dropped from many school districts.

quote:

Originally posted by GWbiker:

quote:

...You don't address the hypocrisy, you advocate that wearing a helmet should be a choice, but you also advocate that you should be required to ride a bike, against their will, in order to get a license.

You can't have it both ways.

My suggestion would, ready for this: Make - better - safer - motorists on the roadways.

Chew on that for a while.

Highly doubtful, unless you only gave them mopeds it would be the equivalent of handing a 16 year old the keys to a sports car. As a former 16 year old that had a sports car then, it is a very bad idea.

So you will be a glut of deaths of 16 years old with little benefit. Because the people you will want to target it the most will see it as jumping through the hoops many might not every ride the bike (what are you going to force data logging too). And they will get their SUVs after that year and drive just as cluelessly just like in states that raised the minimum time to go from a learners permit to a full drivers license.

Your scenario is pure feel good fantasy.

Again lets talk about something that would make the roads safer. Helmets and proper riding gear are statistically proven to reduce motorcycle deaths and injuries.

Yet to you this should be a choice. While your biker fantasy land reasoning forced motorcycle riding should be mandatory. So you believe in freedom for bikers, but forcing something they might not want to do on cagers. You are like a Democrat, freedom for me, but not for you.

quote:

Again lets talk about something that would make the roads safer. Helmets and proper riding gear are statistically proven to reduce motorcycle deaths and injuries.

Prove it. That's the NHTSA feeding you crap. A motorcycle helmet never prevented a motorcycle related accident. PREVENTION is the safety net for bikers, not helmet law.

Proper riding gear? Take the average young newbe and dress him in ATGATT, complete with helmet and let him play in commuter traffic. He should last around 20 minutes.

A thorough AMA approved Rider training course is the answer. The same course the Feds said was "Counter productive". Unfortunately, rider training funding has been raided by state politicians to meet balanced budgets. You should monitor this issue!

The riders training programs advise: Bright color motorcycle, bright color helmet, bright color riding gear, paying attention to what's a quarter mile ahead and what's around you. Bright lights, several if possible and LOUD horns..

That might wake up those four wheeled idiots on cellphones.

Think I'll got for a bike ride. Commuter traffic is at home and my worry now will be drunks on the road.

Edit: each state mandates helmet use for 16 and 18 year old riders. So, you can sleep easy tonight!

quote:

Originally posted by GWbiker:
Prove it. That's the NHTSA feeding you crap. A motorcycle helmet never prevented a motorcycle related accident. PREVENTION is the safety net for bikers, not helmet law.

Wow you are completely ignoring your hypocrisy (which was my point) and focusing in on something I never said. I said and I quote.

quote:

Helmets and proper riding gear are statistically proven to reduce motorcycle deaths and injuries.

I said reduce injuries not accidents. And like with preventing STDs, not getting into the situation is the best way to not get injured. But just like other forms of aggressive driving it is harder to regulate, OTOH making bikers wear helmets is something that even a cop passing by can see or not. So even though you can't prevent the accident, you can lower the rate of major injuries when it happens. Just like a seat belt or air bags.

Personally I don't give a fuck if bikers wear helmets or riding gear or not. It is their life, but I can also see the other side that due to a biker making poor choices the people shouldn't have to pay for biker's poor choices because we have shared responsibilities through insurance and hospitals treating people without payment.

quote:

Originally posted by fischtown7:

quote:

Originally posted by Crom:

quote:

Originally posted by fischtown7:
For all you no helmet fans, I have a test for you. ... I saw a shirtless guy get hit by cicadas and lose control of his HD. Last summer.

That is a powerful argument; but I have actually never heard of that happening, nor has anything similar happened to me. Are there really credible statistics on "the probability of losing control of a motorcycle due to road debris and subsequently causing injury to someone else" ? I would really like to know.

I have seen 2 bird strikes and the cicada incident personally. Pulled two of my fellow truckers out of vehicles they lost control of due to no seatbelt. Got thrown out of their seats.

When I got my driver trainer certification in Europe they could not believe the no helmet laws we have, first thing they said was how it could lead to loss of control. And they do not have half the trash we do on the road. I have lost 6 windshield in 10 years. One time a bolt half as big as my fist went thru my passenger windshield. We had a trainee in Florida get hit by a shovel that went thru the windshield.

I am confused. You are citing examples of TRUCKS losing control due to bird/debris strikes ?

But we don't make truckers wear helmets.
???

quote:

Originally posted by Aquabird:

I do think a rider course should be required however.

10-4 on MSF course...and sounds like your son has good taste!