quote:

Originally posted by DanH:
Something else Omega doesn't do that Rolex does is make 100% of every watch component in house.

This is not true. The SWATCH Group manufactures all components. Just because ETA is cutting the main plates and bridges, doesn't mean it's not "in house" for Omega. Omega = ETA = SWATCH. ETA is merely the movement component source under the SWATCH umbrella.

Rolex still outsources MANY components. In fact they didn't even own Aegler movements until 2012.

The Daytona used Zenith sourced movement, then modified for a time. Before that, they were 100% Valjoux.

quote:

Originally posted by Kranky:
If you are interested in seeing how the market has moved on watches here are some trends.

https://watchcharts.com/watches/indexes


--K

That was interesting. Thank you for posting it up.


This is anecdotal and a super small sampling but in my neck of the woods my favorite watch boutique recently began to carry Zenith watches.

While talking to my favorite saleslady about the renovations and changes they were making to their displays I discovered that Zenith had exceeded their sales goal for the year in only the second month of being in their boutique.


Needless to say Zenith is one of the brands who will be seeing their display grow. Longines didn’t fare so well and will unfortunately be one of the three or four brands she mentioned that will be disappearing soon from my favorite boutique all together. Sucks to lose brands but maybe some deals will on the horizon as they clear out old stock.

Not everyone finds watches collectible or addictive but if you ever get bitten by that bug oh buddy look out. It’s an EXPENSIVE hobby/obsession.

quote:

Originally posted by DanH:

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Yes, but Omega doesn't make "the watch of choice for speleologists, volcanologists and polar explorers" and Rolex does.

Something else Omega doesn't do that Rolex does is make 100% of every watch component in house. You're usually in even higher end territory like Jaegar LeCoultre or Patek Phillipe when you hit that level.

Pretty sure Seiko movements are all done in house. Stickman will know for sure.

Yes. While Seiko has manufacturing plants all over Asia they make all of their movements in house. In fact, Grand Seiko manufacturers all components in-house at their Shizukuishi Watch Studio in Morioka, Japan. While their name might not command the respect it deserves because of the tremendous price range in their line up Seiko is a serious player in the watch manufacturing and movement manufacturing world.

quote:

Originally posted by Mars_Attacks:
Tudor has the Ranger.

I like the Ranger. I’d buy one for myself, but it’s too similar to my Seamaster 300. I’d buy one for my son, but as a 17yo living in the dorms, he has no need for a $3,000 watch. I’d buy him a Rolex right now though and hang on to it for college graduation.

That’s the thing about Rolex, they aren’t going to be any cheaper in four years, so buying one now at a decent price wouldn’t be a big risk. Waiting on the Tudor Ranger isn’t a risk either. The new ones will be more, but I strongly suspect the used ones in excellent condition will be right around what a new one costs now. Omega, not so much. I have two that I bought used for nowhere near retail for and I’d lose money if had to sell them.

Omega Moonwatch & a Grand Seiko are 2 of my top 3 on my wishlist.
Rolex, I'd take one but probably not with my $

Do not want to thread drift too much, but does anyone have experience with Oris chronographs? https://www.oris.ch/en-US/watc...7791-4054-07-8-20-18

The premium and demand for Rolex is out there at present.

I’d be curious to know who makes their movements in house and who uses other movements. I’d heard that most brands that advertise “Swiss” movements mostly use the same ETA/Valjeaux movements. Earlier comments here indicate these movements may be modified or used partially by certain brands. I understood Rolex makes their own movements, but it sounds like they may use other parts as well.

Auto or mech movements can’t be as accurate as a cheap elect watch but with me elect watches don’t seem to last long.



Mt 70s Rolex datejust is going strong. I guess I bought it just before they became fashionable because although expensive at the time, it was nowhere at the current level (inflation tables considered). I broke watches regularly. they said the Rolex wouldn’t beak, they were right.

Currently I alternate the Rolex with an “Island” auto watch that uses a Seiko movement. It resembles a Hamilton Field watch on its face. It’s been great and I think it’s one of the better auto deals on the market. My opinion is that Seiko auto movements rival if not better the Eta/Valjeaux movements.

Hamilton refused to repair my vintage Ham Field chrono saying no parts (ETA 7750) but is eager to take it off my hands as a crappy trade in for a current model.I suspect they want to repair and sell on the vintage market. screw’em. I’m still considering whether it’s worth it to repair elsewhere. Hamiton is part of the Swatch group, which owns ETA I understand.

Also heard Eta/Valjeaux is limiting sales of their movements to those within Swatch group, boosting other movement use.

I have a Steinhart chrono with an ETA movement that has been a good watch as well.

I’m sure there are those out there that can correct any info that I got wrong and am always eager to hear more info on watches. I find them interesting.

As to the comments about Dave Truong, I heartily agree. He’s a stand up guy and always eager to help a Sigforum member.

quote:

Originally posted by HKAngusKL:
Do not want to thread drift too much, but does anyone have experience with Oris chronographs? https://www.oris.ch/en-US/watc...7791-4054-07-8-20-18

The premium and demand for Rolex is out there at present.

Oris makes a nice watch. The case and bracelets are usually better finished than a lot of brands. Most movement are average. Not super high end or anything. Tudor has a Black Bay Chrono as well. I like their panda dial. A Speedmaster is another option. They made an automatic option for a time. https://www.jomashop.com/omega...wEAQYAiABEgKl3PD_BwE

Last time in the Denver area I walked into a shop to get a look at Ball first hand. If I had the money and intent that day I would have walked out with an Oris.

quote:

Originally posted by Mars_Attacks:
This is not true. The SWATCH Group manufactures all components. Just because ETA is cutting the main plates and bridges, doesn't mean it's not "in house" for Omega. Omega = ETA = SWATCH. ETA is merely the movement component source under the SWATCH umbrella.

Rolex still outsources MANY components. In fact they didn't even own Aegler movements until 2012.

The Daytona used Zenith sourced movement, then modified for a time. Before that, they were 100% Valjoux.

1) Rolex hasn't used an outsourced movement in any of their watches in the 21st Century, and the El Primero I believe was the last movement Rolex didn't make in house until 2000 when they came out with the 4130 in 2000.

2) Omega is a subsidiary of Swatch and could not survive on it's own without the other branches of Swatch without outsourcing while Rolex has been busying buying all of it's suppliers over the last 20 years.

https://beckertime.com/blog/im...in-house-production/

It's also why Omega isn't looked upon as an equal to Rolex just like how the Japanese or American luxury car brands aren't held to the same esteem as BMW or Mercedes-Benz who don't make cheap cars for everyone. I did forget to add the qualifier of Swiss Brands because Seiko does make all their own components, but they still suffer from the same "prestige" or snob appeal as mentioned.

quote:

Needless to say Zenith is one of the brands who will be seeing their display grow. Longines didn’t fare so well and will unfortunately be one of the three or four brands she mentioned that will be disappearing soon from my favorite boutique all together. Sucks to lose brands but maybe some deals will on the horizon as they clear out old stock.

Longines is stuck in the Buick position in Swatch's lineup. They aren't enough better than Hamilton to justify the extra price while they aren't allowed to reach or exceed Omega, and I also don't have any idea how to fix that problem.

quote:

Do not want to thread drift too much, but does anyone have experience with Oris chronographs?

Never owned any Oris chronos, but they're one of the middle grade that depends on movement makers like ETA or Selita for most of their stuff. All of the chronos I was looking at about 10 years ago were all variations of the Valjoux 7750, but it looks like Selita has expanded their chronograph offering.

quote:

I’d be curious to know who makes their movements in house and who uses other movements. I’d heard that most brands that advertise “Swiss” movements mostly use the same ETA/Valjeaux movements. Earlier comments here indicate these movements may be modified or used partially by certain brands. I understood Rolex makes their own movements, but it sounds like they may use other parts as well.

Most of the larger brands like Breitling, TAG Heuer, and others are doing a mix of making their own movements while buying standard movements from ETA and Selita for their lower end pieces. The story as I remember it is Swatch saved the Swiss Watch industry in the 80's by buying up several watch and movement makers and supplying the majority of the watch brands so they didn't have to spend money they didn't have developing their own movements.

Then in the 2000s, the head of Swatch back then told everyone that the crisis was over and if you were a major manufacturer they were going to restrict sales of movements to them and focus on their own brands instead of their competitors (unless you were a small maker just starting out where they have no issues selling to them). Selita was a ETA supplier that changed over in 2003 to build their versions of all the ETA movements that had their patents expire that took up the supply demands that ETA pulled back from.

quote:

My opinion is that Seiko auto movements rival if not better the Eta/Valjeaux movements.

On the high end absolutely, but Seiko also builds everything from bottom of the barrel to sky's the limit while the Swiss would rather build you a quartz movement and save the autos for higher end models.

Speaking of which TAG Heuer got in trouble several years ago with their "new" Calibre 1887. Basically, they licensed the Seiko 6S78, replaced a couple of parts, built it in Switzerland so it would qualify for the "Swiss Made" designation, called it their own, and didn't tell anyone about the Seiko connection until people started comparing the two movements. You can read more about it here, but if they said they worked with Seiko from the beginning instead of sweeping it under the rug, the uproar would have been less:

https://calibercorner.com/tag-...7_VS_Seiko_6S78_TC78

I use to own a TAG Heuer Carrera Calibre 1887 CAR2112.FC6267 before selling off my meager collection and rather loved it.




The biggest downside to most modern Swiss movements (1887 included) is they're chasing the Power Reserve "Pink Dragon" so all of them are chunkier than previous models. You'll have a difficult time finding one that is 10mm of thinner these days, but they'll last almost 3 days or more depending on the model.

I've enjoyed this discussion. I like watches, but admit I don't know the intricate details of various movements, etc. Years ago, one of our informal shooting group was an engineer who wore a Submariner. He said he paid $600.00 for it, but as I said this was years ago. I finally bought one in '87, and have worn it practically every day since. Yes, I know it's likely a $3.00 Chinese quartz watch is more precise, and other's favorite XYZ brand has a finer movement. OK, I get it, but still don't regret buying the Rolex.

FWIW, I was in a Rolex jeweler a couple years ago. I don't know if they were actually for sale, but they had only a very few Rolex on display. I asked the sales guy what a new Sub would cost. IIRC, he said $8000.00 and 5 years wait. I figured a new Sub would be rather expensive, but didn't know there would be a wait, much less 5 years???

Rolex's new "system" for buying anything is based on past purchases. They want to see "real" purchases and a general progression. They are trying to squeeze out the secondary market - making dealers purchase over retail. They've already purchased Bucherer, which will be selling preowned Rolexes. This provides a plug and play model for their preowned business.

Anecdotally, I sold a Daytona ceramic panda a few years ago for $42,000. I sold the same for $26,000 in January...making $1,000 per watch...on a $15k retail watch! CRAZY

quote:

Originally posted by DanH:

1) Rolex hasn't used an outsourced movement in any of their watches in the 21st Century, and the El Primero I believe was the last movement Rolex didn't make in house until 2000 when they came out with the 4130 in 2000.

Rolex didn't own Aegler until 2004.

Even though Aegler was exclusive with Rolex, Rolex still sourced the movements from Aegler.

Tudor's "in house" movement is made by Kenissi, a cooperative between Breitling, Chanel, Rolex and Tudor. Tudor's Chrono is a Breitling. Breitling's B20 is the Kenissi. Tag Heuer is about to drop Sellita for the Kenissi movement for their higher end watches.

quote:

Originally posted by goose5:
Last time in the Denver area I walked into a shop to get a look at Ball first hand. If I had the money and intent that day I would have walked out with an Oris.

Oris makes quite a few that I've liked, and you definitely don't see them as often [or at least I don't].

quote:

Originally posted by Mars_Attacks:
Tudor's "in house" movement is made by Kenissi, a cooperative between Breitling, Chanel, Rolex and Tudor. Tudor's Chrono is a Breitling. Breitling's B20 is the Kenissi. Tag Heuer is about to drop Sellita for the Kenissi movement for their higher end watches.

Never said anything about Tudor and their movements. They were always a sub brand using common movements until recently and have nowhere near the snob appeal of a Rolex proper. And I thought TAG were already making their own movements with the Heuer01 and Heuer02?

When buying from Crown and Caliber, Bobs or Swiss Watch Expo, do people just order using the web or are you calling/emailing and negotiating?

I've called Bob's to negotiate before. But it was on a trade. They'll talk with you and their sales reps are pretty good about getting back to you.

If you have a specific watch in mind, since it's your first important Rolex, I'm happy to help facilitate at cost. My email is david@mimisjewelryinc.com if I can help.

quote:

Originally posted by davetruong:
If you have a specific watch in mind, since it's your first important Rolex, I'm happy to help facilitate at cost. My email is david@mimisjewelryinc.com if I can help.

Trust that he means it.