SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge Seven US Sailors are missing after a US Navy destroyer collided with a 21,000 ton cargo ship 56 miles off the coast of Japan.
Main Page The Lounge Seven US Sailors are missing after a US Navy destroyer collided with a 21,000 ton cargo ship 56 miles off the coast of Japan.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Member |
You asked "Does this thread need to get locked?". In my opinion the thread is pretty civil and everyone is getting along and brainstorming ideas. There is a lull in information until more information is released so I guess everyone has gotten a little side tracked. But, I personally don't see a reason to lock it. However, my opinion means very little and carries very little weight. | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower  |
Listen, it's apparent that you don't even know what I am referring to, so do both of us a favor and refrain from interfering when I'm moderating this forum. Ever hear of a rhetorical question? | |||
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| I believe in the principle of Due Process  |
Link Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me. When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown | |||
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Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie |
Oh for the love of... Of course the ship was on autopilot. Jesus, Mary, and Joseph...who are these ignorant imbeciles writing these articles? As if a ship being on autopilot is some grand conspiracy or something. Ships in transit are nearly always in autopilot.
 Pure ignorance. ~Alan Acta Non Verba NRA Life Member (Patron) God, Family, Guns, Country Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan "Once there was only dark. If you ask me, light is winning." ~Rust Cohle | |||
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| SIGforum Official Eye Doc  |
I didn't read it that way. I thought it was a measured and thoughtful statement, and it seems like the same conclusion that some of here have reached, the author reached (i.e. human error). I think it could have been worded a lot worse. I don't see the implication that autopilot use was nefarious.  | |||
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| I believe in the principle of Due Process |
All of these statements are somewhat speculative, reaching out for a scenario that fits what is known, the applicable rules, policies and practices of mariners and what is likely about human behavior in these situations. So far, there doesn't seem to be an explanation that fits well. It is a mistake at this point to draw firm conclusions, and nearly irresistible to try. Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me. When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown | |||
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| Do No Harm, Do Know Harm |
From the article:
I have to disagree...it couldn't have been worded much worse. The author sounds like a moron interjecting his opinion. Just the facts. Ugh. Knowing what one is talking about is widely admired but not strictly required here. Although sometimes distracting, there is often a certain entertainment value to this easy standard. -JALLEN "All I need is a WAR ON DRUGS reference and I got myself a police thread BINGO." -jljones | |||
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| SIGforum Official Eye Doc |
I wasn't referring to the bolded statement you added. I was referring to the text in red. | |||
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goodheart |
I know nothing about the specifics, but Bill Gertz is usually a knowledgeable and reliable conservative defense analyst. _________________________ “ What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.”— Lord Melbourne | |||
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| Member |
judging by the pictures of the impact, the cargo ship was on the right- and the right of way, unless it is different internationally is: The other vessel’s on the right: It’s the privileged or stand-on vessel and you must let it pass in front of you. Autopilot is irrelevant in this case. definitely not an expert in anything nautical There is something good and motherly about Washington, the grand old benevolent National Asylum for the helpless. - Mark Twain The Gilded Age #CNNblackmail #CNNmemewar | |||
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Unflappable Enginerd |
This particular aspect has been beaten to DEATH on previous pages of this thread. __________________________________ NRA Benefactor I lost all my weapons in a boating, umm, accident. http://www.aufamily.com/forums/ | |||
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| Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie |
We covered this quite a bit already throughout the thread. Without knowing the track of the Navy ship, we can't know what we have here. It could have been a crossing situation or an overtaking situation. Only the Navy knows right now. And yes, the Autopilot is completely irrelevant. ~Alan Acta Non Verba NRA Life Member (Patron) God, Family, Guns, Country Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan "Once there was only dark. If you ask me, light is winning." ~Rust Cohle | |||
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| wishing we were congress |
https://news.usni.org/2017/06/...lision-investigation Rear Adm. Brian Fort, formerly the commander of USS Gonzalez (DDG-66) and Destroyer Squadron 26, will head up the Navy’s Manual of the Judge Advocate General (JAGMAN) into the circumstances of the June 17, 2017, collision between the guided-missile destroyer and the Philippine-flagged container ship ACX Crystal His job will be to guide the investigators that are collecting data from the ship, interviewing the crew and evaluating countless other details, in an effort to create the Navy’s case to determine blame for the incident in which seven sailors were killed. While there are several ongoing investigations by U.S. Navy, U.S. Coast Guard, Japanese authorities and insurance companies into the collision, the JAGMAN will be one of the few that will be available for public scrutiny. A parallel U.S. Navy safety investigation will likely not be released to the public. “The purpose of a JAGMAN investigation is to discover facts pertaining to an occurrence, such as an aviation, ground or maritime mishap, in order to identify failures in doctrine, organization, training, materiel, leadership, [standard operating procedures], etc. and also to assist in affixing blame and accountability,” “The findings of a JAGMAN can lead to disciplinary action against servicemembers and civilian employees or the termination of contracts. A safety investigation is categorically different: the purpose of the investigation is only to find out what went wrong and why.” Fort, who was promoted to flag rank earlier this year, is currently serving as the commander of Navy Region Hawaii and Naval Surface Group Middle Atlantic The Navy investigation will determine the culpability of the crew and the commander of the ship, Cmdr. Bryce Benson, and provide recommendations for corrective action and punishment, if required. | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
^^^^ Yup the next pain train is coming... JAGMAN time... | |||
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| I believe in the principle of Due Process |
I don't believe that is accurate. In an overtaking situation, the vessel overtaking must stay clear of the vessel being overtaken. There is a diagram a few pages back that illustrates how this applies. The question now is whether it was an overtaking situation, or a crossing situation. Without knowing the track and possible maneuvers of the destroyer, that cannot be determined. The use of autoplot is only relevant for whatever it might suggest about the level of attention from live crew members on the container ship. One report claimed investigators believe the bridge was unmanned before the collision. Much of what is being discussed seems unbelievable, so for now, don't. Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me. When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown | |||
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| Member |
Not this particular article but, there's a whole bunch of articles in a variety of papers, many of them abbreviated from their original source material, that give the impression that 'auto-pilot' on an ocean going ship is some insane, WTF! feature. You talk to most people on the street and many think there's somebody at the helm, hands-on the wheel AT ALL TIMES, meanwhile Scotty is down in the engine room, with his ear on the engine ALL THE TIME and petty officer Holman is shoveling coal ALL THE TIME. While I don't expect most people to have an understanding of modern ships, it would be a great service to everyone if newspaper writers could at the very least, provide some perspective and if needed get qualified experts to speak about it. In this case, I don't want to hear from a retired admiral who's last command at sea was 30+ years ago, get that chief or, petty officer who worked on black gang or was in charge of a damage control section. | |||
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| Member |
99.9% of the time a ship will be on autopilot in open ocean. It would be totally unusual for it to not be on autopilot during this time. It would be like saying someone must have been sleeping on their 10 hour car voyage on a lightly populated freeway because the car was on cruise control. The autopilot did not malfunction as it brought the freighter right back to it's course after a major collision. 99.9% of the time if an Autopilot malfunctions it stops steering the vessel completely. Virtually all commercial ships (small and large) are using ECDIS (Electronic Chart Display + Information System)to plot their entire voyages and this is what steers the ship once the Captain or first officer inspects and hits the OK button on the route. This is the standard on ships now and it does tell the autopilot to steer to follow the course. Again 99.9% of ships would have the autopilot following the ECDIS computer on this voyage. ECDIS is mandatory on this size freighter. It too would be mandatory for the destroyer (>3,000GT) if they were following IMO shipping standards. The use of autopilot has ZERO bearing on whether or not the crew was awake. 99.9% of the time ships are on autopilot and following the ECDIS computers course in open ocean. I feel they were awake, but you never know. After a collision, it would take every bit of 30 minutes to Muster the crew from sleep, get them to their muster stations, delegate people to go to the bow and inspect, determine the severity of the damage,wake the Captain, then send people through the ship to inspect the hull and bulbous bow, and decide to either turn around and assist, or head to the nearest port if you're in trouble of sinking yourself. I would be wary if it took less than 30 minutes, that would mean to me that they saw the collision coming and started reacting before they even collided. Heck it takes 10 minutes to walk from the bridge to the bow of this size freighter in broad daylight. This article is written by someone who doesn't have a clue about freighters, destroyers, or navigation and full of fail. | |||
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| I believe in the principle of Due Process |
Investigators obtain data recorder from container ship in Fitzgerald collision Navy Times TOKYO — Japanese authorities said Thursday they have obtained a data recording device from a container ship to help determine why it collided with a U.S. destroyer, killing seven American sailors. Japanese transport safety officials said they obtained the voyage data recorder, similar to an airplane's "black box," from the Philippine-flagged ACX Crystal, which is currently docked in Yokohama near Tokyo. Investigators are examining the ship's movements, including its location, direction, speed and other data to determine the cause of its collision with the USS Fitzgerald early Saturday off Izu Peninsula, west of Tokyo. "By analyzing the data, we should be able to determine the circumstances of how it crashed," Transport Safety Board spokesman Katsunori Takahashi said. The safety board is focusing on the cause of the collision and the lessons to be learned, while Japan's coast guard is investigating possible professional negligence in the accident. U.S. Navy and Coast Guard officials are investigating the destroyer at its home port, Yokosuka naval base. Japanese coast guard official Takeshi Aikawa said the first distress call came from the container ship at 2:25 a.m., and it identified the other party as "a U.S. warship." The coast guard immediately contacted the destroyer to ask about its damage. "They requested our help in the rescue operations," he said. Within two hours, a Japanese coast guard patrol ship was at the scene. Investigation into Fitzgerald collision begins The Japanese coast guard has revised its estimate of the collision time from an initial 2:20 a.m. to 1:30 a.m. after interviewing the Crystal's crewmembers and examining the ship's location. It is not known why the two vessels did not immediately contact the coast guard, Japanese officials say. There is speculation that the Fitzgerald might have been temporarily unable to communicate because of damage from the collision, or because its crew was working frantically to keep the ship from sinking. Japanese officials say every ship is equipped with a backup communication system for emergencies. The U.S. Navy still uses 2:20 a.m. as the time of the collision, but U.S. military officials say they have no intention to dispute the Japanese coast guard, and that the investigation will settle the issue. The collision occurred in Japanese waters, but it is uncertain if Japanese authorities will have access to U.S. investigation results because the U.S. military has the primary right to investigate U.S. warships involved in accidents under a bilateral Status of Forces Agreement. Following a 2009 collision between a U.S. naval ship and a Japanese boat, Japanese authorities were not allowed access to the warship investigation, Japanese transport officials said. Link Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me. When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown | |||
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Happily Retired |
Interesting. There was no doubt in my mind that the Navy would be doing their own investigation but I always assumed they would share their data with the Japanese seeing as this all happened in their waters. I wonder if that is reciprocal? .....never marry a woman who is mean to your waitress. | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
These same people fly on planes every day that have the AUTOPILOT coupled almost immediately after takeoff and only taken off very shortly before landing... Oh, the HORROR!!!!!  You know what? Military planes have the dreaded AUTO PILOT as well. And the pilots even have the gall to use said AUTO PILOT over bad guy country sometimes! | |||
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SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge Seven US Sailors are missing after a US Navy destroyer collided with a 21,000 ton cargo ship 56 miles off the coast of Japan.
Main Page The Lounge Seven US Sailors are missing after a US Navy destroyer collided with a 21,000 ton cargo ship 56 miles off the coast of Japan.© SIGforum 2024