SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge Seven US Sailors are missing after a US Navy destroyer collided with a 21,000 ton cargo ship 56 miles off the coast of Japan.
Main Page The Lounge Seven US Sailors are missing after a US Navy destroyer collided with a 21,000 ton cargo ship 56 miles off the coast of Japan.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
Needs a bigger boat |
Just looking at the footage of the Fitzgerald pulling in to port, as low in the water as she was with that much of a list, she was probably within a hair's breadth of rolling over and sinking. Regardless of the screw up on the bridge that caused the collision, it was some heroic and very smart damage control that kept her afloat. MOO means NO! Be the comet! | |||
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Member |
To my very untrained eye, her back looks broken. Hedley Lamarr: Wait, wait, wait. I'm unarmed. Bart: Alright, we'll settle this like men, with our fists. Hedley Lamarr: Sorry, I just remembered . . . I am armed. | |||
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Info Guru |
According to the article at the bottom of page 25, her hull was twisted. Knowing nothing about naval architecture or repairing that type of damage, but that sounds pretty dang serious and hard to fix. “Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” - John Adams | |||
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Official Space Nerd |
I doubt the Navy will ever name a ship after him. After all, it would serve as a continuing reminder of how the Fitz's watch crew (on bridge, lookouts, and CIC) screwed up. That is, unless the investigation shows the collision was intentional by the container ship. Any other scenario would put the blame on the Fitz crew, IMO. Fear God and Dread Nought Admiral of the Fleet Sir Jacky Fisher | |||
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| Member |
The beauty of a metal ship is, it's relatively easy to cut metal and weld in new pieces. However, there is probably so much damage under the waterline in this situation that it would be cost prohibitive to fix her and they most likely will scrap her, but you never know and impossible to determine until you see her out of the water. They extend some freighters by cutting the entire ship in half into 2 pieces, and putting say a 50'-150' long section that they made into the middle and welding the bow and stern sections to it and back together sometimes. So nothing is impossible. | |||
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A Grateful American |
^^^ Yep. It comes down to $ and time. It may cost a ton of money to repair, but the time to build a replacement, vs the time to repair and have that asset back in service may well justify the higher cost of repair. The exception woud be if they already have ships in production, then laying an additional keel on a new ship would be the more cost effective and salvage the Fitz. If there are no more being made, then "starting" a new one may be more expensive in time and money than a repair. I am certain there are a few folks looking at the options. So, I can get back to looking at the cat thread. God bless the familiy, friends and fellow shipmates of those who were lost. Sailoring is a tough job. I am greatful for those who serve. "the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" ✡ Ani Yehudi אני יהודי Le'olam lo shuv לעולם לא שוב! | |||
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| I believe in the principle of Due Process  |
I would be very surprised to find the Navy has ships like this in the works. They have gone to those Little Crummy Ships, and the budget is spent trying to get them operational. Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me. When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown | |||
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Unflappable Enginerd |
I was at Ingalls a while back and they had 2 that were in process, I'm pretty sure they reduced the Zumwalt class production in lieu of additional Arleigh Burke units, but I'm not sure where that stands. __________________________________ NRA Benefactor I lost all my weapons in a boating, umm, accident. http://www.aufamily.com/forums/ | |||
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Mark1Mod0Squid |
X2 delivered 2017, X3 Scheduled for delivery, 1 in 2017 and 2 in 2018. X4 Keels laid and 5 further contracts awarded. Price tag for an Arleigh Burke FLT 1 was $1.9 billion. Cost to repair the USS Cole was $250 million give or take. My guess is if the USS Fitzgerald is repairable at a reasonable cost (whatever someone thinks that is) or even more, they will do it as a show of industrial and US Navy "can do esprit de corps". _____________________________________________ Never use more than three words to say "I don't know" | |||
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| wishing we were congress |
more significant info from the USNI News article that was identified earlier https://news.usni.org/2017/06/...ss-call-reached-help The crew of the guided-missile destroyer that was struck by a merchant ship on Friday off the coast of Japan fought to save the ship for an hour before the first calls went out for help, Japanese investigators now believe. According to the current operational theory of Japanese investigators, the deadly collision between USS Fitzgerald (DDG-62) and the Philippine-flagged merchant ship ACX Crystal knocked out the destroyer’s communications for an hour, while the four-times-larger merchant ship was unaware of what it hit until it doubled back and found the damaged warship, two sources familiar with the ongoing Japanese investigation told USNI News on Wednesday. Investigators now think Crystal was transiting to Tokyo on autopilot with an inattentive or asleep crew when the merchant vessel struck a glancing blow on the destroyer’s starboard side at about 1:30 AM local time on Friday. When the crew of Crystal realized they had hit something, the ship performed a U-turn in the shipping lane and sped back to the initial site of the collision at 18 knots, discovered Fitzgerald, and radioed a distress call to authorities at about 2:30 AM | |||
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| Member |
The Fitzgerald is one of a number of AB class destroyers outfitted with SM-3 anti-ballistic missile defense so scrapping might be a very expensive option. | |||
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| I believe in the principle of Due Process |
That is the scenario that seemed most plausible to me, given the track info we had, but I still can't imagine what the crew of the Fitz was doing, or not doing. Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me. When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown | |||
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Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie |
It'll probably end up being no more than good old fashioned miscommunication and confusion mixed with a bit of bad leadership. I'm actually more curious to hear and see the info off of the Crystal's Voyage Data Recorder. But that's mostly due to professional curiosity. ~Alan Acta Non Verba NRA Life Member (Patron) God, Family, Guns, Country Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan "Once there was only dark. If you ask me, light is winning." ~Rust Cohle | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
Not a bad read about the OOD process and the Captain of a Navy ships responsibility. Fitzgerald: When A Big Ocean Gets Small It is a big ocean. Until you have been far into it, it is really hard to appreciate just how big. Bringing a ship back from Japan to Hawaii, I once went ten days without seeing another ship, either by eye or radar. That is a long time to be alone in the world, especially if you are moving in a straight line and at good speed. On the other hand, you would be surprised at how crowded the ocean can get in certain places. The Strait of Malacca, for instance, divides the island of Sumatra from Malaysia. Not only is Singapore at the southern end—one of the great maritime ports of the world—but most of the shipping moving between Asia and Africa, and from the Middle East to Europe, travels through this increasingly narrow, 600 mile-long passage. Every year, 100,000 ships transit this strait. By the way, these confined waters are infested with pirates and literally thousands of fishing boats. While a chart may make the strait seem wide, the passable channel for big ships is only a couple of miles wide. Challenging By Day, Frightening at Night Tokyo Bay or “Tokyo Wan” is like that. Yes, the area where the USS Fitzgerald (DDG-62) collision took place is more wide open than the Wan itself, but just like the approaches to Norfolk or Boston or Los Angeles, dozens of ships are approaching at any time, all heading for a very narrow entrance channel, all on tight schedules. Think of it as a funnel, necking down to the shipping channel which goes into the port. Outside the shipping channel, which has strict rules, the mouth of the funnel is the Wild West for ships coming and going. It can be challenging during the day, but at night it can be frightening. On any given night, ships will mill about, outside the shipping channels, waiting for dawn when they can both use their eyes to help, and meet the pilots who will berth their ships in port. All those huge ships, waiting their appointed time creates a mess. They may drift or they may travel in circles or they may give themselves a box to stay in while they await first light. Personally, I tried to avoid this mess by slowing my track so that I did not even arrive at the funnel mouth until dawn, but sometimes you do not have a choice, and you spend tense hours trying to avoid other ships, praying for the light. Imagine you are on the bridge of your ship and you are waiting off Tokyo—or more specifically, Yokosuka— Fitzgerald ’s home in Japan—which is right down the coast. There may be moonlight, which is a help, or the sky make be overcast, or there may be no moon, or maybe the moon rose and set earlier, or maybe it will rise and set later. The point is that it can be utterly black at sea. Most people have no idea how black. What do you see with your eyes off Tokyo? You see on the horizon a universe of lights. Some originating from land, some from ships. Some moving, some not. There are many different colored lights. Many are engineered to be visible at specific ranges and that may be of some help. The visibility of a ship’s masthead light, for example, is supposed to be six miles. A sidelight is three miles. But the weather and other atmospheric and physical variables may increase or decrease the visibility. In other words, if you see a ship’s masthead light suddenly appear, you may want to believe, “Oh, that dude is six miles away for me.” But, maybe not. You need to worry about all of these lights until you figure each one out. What are they doing? Where are they going? Are they closing me? Which ones should I worry about and how soon? The composition of these lights is constantly changing too, as ships come and go. As fishermen appear and disappear. As lights on shore go on and off though the night. In other words, it is a very complex puzzle for even the most experienced mariner. You decode the puzzle by using your radar and your charts to associate these lights with ships or objects on the beach. Just as your eye is not perfect, neither is a radar. Different radars have different characteristics, and they are each better or worse at varied ranges and in different situations. Some are good in rain, some do not even remotely help in a heavy rain. Every sailor can think of a time that they came across a ship or boat, which in seeming denial of the laws of physics, remained undetected by radar, only to be seen and avoided at the last minute. Ideally, you have several different radars, in concert, as well as the Automatic Identification System (AIS) which tracks the transmission of a discrete identifier by most ships. Who Is On the Bridge? While we do not yet know who was figuring this all out on the night of the Fitzgerald ’s collision, here is how it works at sea in a Navy ship. The commanding officer (CO) is “on call” 24/7. He or she sleeps in a cabin only a few feet away from the pilot house, where all of this “figuring” occurs. COs stays up late, and rise early. They do not even want to sleep, because if anything goes wrong, they inevitably and historically are going to be identified as the responsible party. In a congested seaway, the CO will often “sleep,” if it can be called that, in his chair on the bridge. Often the best team is assigned watch in those most dangerous situations. There are many solutions, but into this mix must be added the possibility that it was a regular watch on the bridge, and the CO, believing the ship was “in the clear,” had left the bridge and gone to his cabin. Who is in charge at night when the CO is sleeping or during the day when he or she is doing something else? The captain alone is responsible for “qualifying” the “Officers of the Deck” (OODs). These are the young officers or very experienced chief petty officers, who are charged to act in the CO’s stead, when he or she is not in the pilot house. These OODs may be salty, or they may be green as grass. Only the captain can decide when they are ready to stand the watch as OOD. But, you must understand that there is pressure to qualify officers for this watch, for to not qualify a young officer as OOD is a death warrant for that young officer’s career. If you are not an OOD, you are of no use to the fleet. Actually, to not qualify an officer can sometimes get a captain the sort of attention that is unwanted, and to not qualify more than one officer, regardless of their capability or capacity, is a recipe for trouble. The expectation is that the captain will train and qualify all the officers assigned under his or her command. Not to do so will cause some to think that the problem lies with the captain, and not the quality of the officers who fail to qualify. There are, however, some unfortunate “solutions.” The worst thing a captain can do is to wait until just before an officer transfers and qualify him or her, effectively passing on the problem to the next ship. Or another poor action is to qualify an officer as OOD, but never have him or her to stand the watch. Sadly, not every OOD is a good and able one. Normally a captain qualifies all officers in due course, and then relies upon a system of checks and balances and back-ups and structure to protect the ship until they grow fully into the job. It is a big deal to be an OOD, entrusted with a billion dollar ship and the lives of several hundred crew. This is the burden of command. A captain puts the lives of several hundred sailors into the hands of a young officer, typically 25 years old and typically green. So what does a captain count on to prevent disaster? The captain has “standing orders.” These are the rules in his or her ship that everyone (especially the OOD) lives by. These are the unbreakable laws modifiable only in writing by the Captain. One of these laws is, “Call me when any ship comes within 10,000 yards (5 miles) of my ship.” So, all through the night the captain is receiving phone calls when the ship is near land. Typically the report goes like the this: “Sir, this is the Officer of the Deck…I have a contact, broad on the starboard bow at 12,000 yards. He is drifting left to a CPA [closest point of approach] on our port bow, at 6,000 yards, in 20 minutes. My intention is to maintain course and speed.” When the OOD calls, the captain envisions the situation in his or her head and then either concurs with the recommendations of the OOD or, if necessary, gives instructions. Sometimes, if the OOD is concerned with the situation, the officer will ask the captain to come to the pilot house. Other times, the captain gets a bad feeling and she goes without being asked. A captain has to know the OODs strengths and weaknesses. The COs need to know how to read voices—does the OOD sound settled and confident? Is there a hint of concern? What time is it? It is in this area where things can and do go wrong. Sometimes, an OOD is afraid to call the captain. Maybe the captain is intimidating. Maybe the OOD, despite the best of intentions, lets a ship get within 10,000 yards before calling. Now the OOD may understand that he or she is in peril of getting rebuked by a captain who cannot possibly understand why the OOD did not understand the meaning of 10,000 yards. Maybe the OOD will lose the captain’s trust? Maybe the CO will fire the OOD—which would be painful and humiliating. Captains must be careful not to get mad or cranky when called. You do not want to make your OODs hesitant to call. It takes a ship going 15 knots only 6 minutes to go 3,000 yards. If your ship and the approaching ship are traveling at 15 knots, the range can decrease by 6,000 yards in 6 minutes. At night, with all the confusion in a busy seaway, the approaching ship can be on you before you know it. And then what? A Sea of Risks It is too early to speculate exactly what happened in the Fitzgerald that night. One thing, however, is certain. The Navy will leave no stone unturned to determine exactly what happened and why. For the rest of us, the tragedy of the untimely death of young sailors reminds us that driving ships, has always been, and always will be fraught with risk. | |||
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| I believe in the principle of Due Process |
Don't they have JOODs anymore, where one gets some experience before being annointed to the top job? The article makes it sound as though Enswine Erskine arrives aboard and is in the watch rotation the next week. Depending on the ship's ops, size, available watch standers, it might be months before you "get the conn." There are experience requirements, some practical observations, checklists, sign offs, standing watch with a senior, etc. There are other officers on watch, too. CIC, for one. I just can't fathom the level of joint incompetence, distraction, nonchalance necessary to end in this FUBAR. Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me. When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown | |||
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| Unflappable Enginerd |
As far as I'm aware, JOOD is reserved as a training position, especially on smaller ships, because ships are not as heavily staffed as they once were, but I'm not in the loop like I once was. __________________________________ NRA Benefactor I lost all my weapons in a boating, umm, accident. http://www.aufamily.com/forums/ | |||
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| wishing we were congress |
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/0...s-investigation.html The United States Navy and Coast Guard are investigating, as are the Japanese Coast Guard and the Japan Transport Safety Board, in an effort to determine what caused the deadly crash in a busy sea lane in the middle of the night. While the Navy will be conducting an internal investigation of its crew’s operations, the United States Coast Guard, along with its counterpart in Japan, will be trying to determine the cause of the accident. The Coast Guard, which normally has a small operation of 10 active-duty members at the Yokota air base, has brought in additional investigators from Hawaii and New Orleans. Lt. Scott Carr, a Coast Guard spokesman, said he could not disclose details of the inquiry, but he said that investigators would typically interview crew members and examine electronic data from the ships involved. Lieutenant Carr said that Coast Guard investigators boarded the Fitzgerald and the Crystal on Tuesday to inspect the scene and take photographs in preparation for interviewing both crews. ************************* from another article: The U.S. coast guard, which is undertaking the investigation on behalf of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board, will gather electronic data and ship tracking information from the USS Fitzgerald and ACX Crystal. The Japan Coast Guard has already spoken to the Filipino crew and is also probing the inconsistency. It is in talks with the U.S. Navy for access to its crew members and data from the destroyer, a spokesman for the organization said. The U.S. Navy did not immediately respond when asked if it would release tracking data to the Japan Coast Guard. https://www.reuters.com/articl...y-asia-idUSKBN19B0DE | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
I think part of the problem might also be that the Navy has been doing the manning crunch for the past 5+ years across the boards. I don't know how undermanned a DDG might be, but reduced manning was something that the surface Navy was being pushed into. Even VFAs were getting cut pretty deep. More with less, you know the drill. Because the less people you have, the less people who make it to retirement, the less retirement money you have to pay out... of course it's all under the guise of business analysis, efficiencies, etc, but that is the bottom line IMO. The Little Crappy Ship was meant to embody that, were everyone onboard was cross trained, had 15 jobs, and wow, that thing can't do shit. | |||
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| I believe in the principle of Due Process |
I read at some length the report of the fiasco with the patrol boats in the Persian Gulf. Among the things that struck me was the overwhelming bureaucracy, organization with instructions, requirements, limitations, for personnel, maintenance, operations, etc. I don't see how anyone could stay up to date as people came and went, quarters came and went, reporting requirements zooming by. Two things emerged. The boats weren't operational, engines, communications, navigation and the crews couldn't run them, plan or execute ops, even if all the reports and documentation were up to date. Something is wrong here. Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me. When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
You are correct. | |||
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SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge Seven US Sailors are missing after a US Navy destroyer collided with a 21,000 ton cargo ship 56 miles off the coast of Japan.
Main Page The Lounge Seven US Sailors are missing after a US Navy destroyer collided with a 21,000 ton cargo ship 56 miles off the coast of Japan.© SIGforum 2024