It should be clear to everyone by now that these are irreconcilable differences. There is only one resolution now

What is under the victim's left arm? Is that an FDE pistol in a shoulder rig?

And a little correction is in order:

DP:

"The right-wing protesters — led by John Tiegen, an El Paso County resident — gathered in the park’s amphitheater and occasionally chanted patriotic songs and held up banners."

Correction:

" - led by John Tiegen, hero team leader of the Benghazi counter-seige and protector and rescuer of two dozen Americans that were left for dead by Hilary Clinton and the Obama-Biden administration - "

Give credit to this man as a true patriot, and one of the finest soldiers under fire that has ever served this country. That he and his team are not household names is a travesty. Trump needs to put these men on stage, let them tell their story, and then ask Biden why he left them for dead?

quote:

Originally posted by mbinky:
I'm curious if he really worked for the Pinkerton's (I'll be honest I didn't even know the Pinkerton's still existed).

Pinkertons exist, but they have many different security companies under that umbrella.

Out here in NE Oregon we have many Amazon server farms being built (a couple already fully functioning) and they are "guarded" (I use the term loosely) by Securitas - a Pinkerton company.

The murder victim is reportedly:

Lee Keltner, a veteran and custom cowboy hat artist

Stop wasting your time going through grainy images and playing “omg is that a gun?” (On the victim). Wouldn’t matter if he had 15 guns. Until one hits his hands, he isn’t fair game. Whether or not he had one doesn’t matter in this case unless he was going for it. To which the video clearly shows he didn’t.

Thank you, JL

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Stop wasting your time going through grainy images and playing “omg is that a gun?” (On the victim). Wouldn’t matter if he had 15 guns. Until one hits his hands, he isn’t fair game. Whether or not he had one doesn’t matter in this case unless he was going for it. To which the video clearly shows he didn’t.

Exactly this^^^^^^ I try not to lump all these private "security" under one umbrella, because I have met some security guys who are good at what they do. BUT....there are far more of them like this guy who like to "play police" and fall into the "rent-a-cop" category and have no business being armed. I hope the victim's family sues the hell of that news station and the shooter personally.

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:
The murder victim is reportedly:

Lee Keltner, a veteran and custom cowboy hat artist

Meet the late Lee Keltner.

Jesus. It’s all nuts.

You can bet your ass that going thru grainy images is what any prosecutor or defense attorney is going to do. Any competent defense attorney is going to do his damnedest to paint a picture of his client having a reasonable fear for his life, that a gun was within reach and about to be drawn. In a venue like Denver, and a situation like this, and the potential jury pool, both sides will examine and use all these images to their advantage.

There's another clear color photo of the murder victim lying on the ground with the murderer standing 10 feet away, gun still pointed at the victim. The victim's vest is open and it's clear to see he had no holster or firearm on his right hip.

Those grainy photos and videos are going to be the principal evidence in a prosecution or defense.

Too bad that BLM POS that caused the initial disturbance gets off free.

quote:

Originally posted by highroundcount:
Jesus. It’s all nuts.

Yup, I cleaned my rifle today. Fucking crazy.

quote:

Originally posted by sdy:
Too bad that BLM POS that caused the initial disturbance gets off free.

That's not the case yet and I hope he'll be formally charged and convicted of murder. I have no problem with the defense meeting their obligation to their client, but the prosecution has an obligation to "The People" (as well as the victim), to see justice done in this case. This guy was a "guard" and I've seen no evidence to justify the use of deadly force against a guy he confronted verbally and seems to have presented a deadly threat to. Regardless of this politics, this shooter (offender) should be charged with murder and tried in court.

quote:

Originally posted by pulicords:

quote:

Originally posted by sdy:
Too bad that BLM POS that caused the initial disturbance gets off free.

That's not the case yet and I hope he'll be formally charged and convicted of murder. I have no problem with the defense meeting their obligation to their client, but the prosecution has an obligation to "The People" (as well as the victim), to see justice done in this case. This guy was a "guard" and I've seen no evidence to justify the use of deadly force against a guy he confronted verbally and seems to have presented a deadly threat to. Regardless of this politics, this shooter (offender) should be charged with murder and tried in court.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The shooter has been charged with first degree murder,it is a few threads up. They are talking about a BLM agitator that started the ball rolling,but he was not the shooter.

Did someone from the TV station order the guard to kill the victim? If not, what would be the basis for suing the station because of the guard’s patently illegal act? Some are evidently arguing that hiring security was unnecessary, but it was evidently completely legal, so what was the foul? If I’m riding in a taxi and the driver runs over a pedestrian, do I somehow share responsibility so I could be sued? How about those airliner crashes that were deliberate acts by the pilots: could the passengers’ estates be sued because they had hired the pilots via the airline companies?

I believe I must be missing some obvious factor; what is it?

I used to wonder why this country had become so lawsuit-happy with the belief of so many people that if anything bad happens, someone needs to be sued for something. I don’t any more.

quote:

There's another clear color photo of the murder victim lying on the ground with the murderer standing 10 feet away, gun still pointed at the victim.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:



Did someone from the TV station order the guard to kill the victim? If not, what would be the basis for suing the station because of the guard’s patently illegal act?

The law of vicarious liability. Under certain circumstances it makes the employer legally responsible for the conduct of its contractor. Typically doesn't apply unless the contractor is performing a task deemed dangerous. A contractor hired to perform armed personal security for a news station employee who is interjecting himself into volatile situations that historically become violent with the goal of seeking out trouble to film will certainly be deemed a dangerous activity. I've seen it successfully applied in cases where there was far, far less inherent danger.

The facts stacking up that the killer was posting hate messages about Trump supporters will be used against him, Pinkertons and Denver 9News. I'd bet there will also be direct claims of negligent hiring and negligent retention directly against Pinkertons and Denver 9News.

How a guy with his social media history of hate messages could be hired to provide armed "security" against the people he posted those messages against is beyond me.

The report is that two handguns were recovered (which could be wrong). Some have speculated that the second was a backup gun held by the shooter, or that it was carried by the news producer. If the victim was armed then the second firearm would have been found on his person and recovered - question answered. The possession of a holstered handgun by the victim IN NO WAY justifies the shooting because the shooter was not in reasonable fear of death or severe bodily harm, and no assertion otherwise was intended.

The only possible defense I can see right now is a claim that the bear spray was intended to incapacitate the shooter to allow a gun grab. But if the victim was armed, there would have been no need for a gun grab. The shooter wasn't even justified to draw and aim based on what we have seen - the bear spray shot occurred after the draw and a fraction of second before the shot was fired.

Hopefully the news station and Pinkerton's will pay huge liability for this. Hiring anyone with a history like the shooter - and tattoos representing fringe groups - is gross negligence.

And despite the communist media claims of white supremacists causing violence amid peaceful protests, we now have two dead unarmed conservatives at the hands of Antifa/BLM sympathizers. It was a peaceful protest by conservatives, and Antifa/BLM showed up to make it violent, just like in Portland.

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:
The law of vicarious liability.

Okay, thanks.
If I were on the jury for this case I would require some serious convincing, but I understand your points.

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
...despite the communist media claims of white supremacists causing violence amid peaceful protests, we now have two dead unarmed conservatives at the hands of Antifa/BLM sympathizers. It was a peaceful protest by conservatives, and Antifa/BLM showed up to make it violent, just like in Portland.

This is actually what Antifa/BLM wanted, except in reverse. We all know they want martyred 'peaceful' protesters. More and more people put together the facts and realize the rioters are the killers. Those guys who were killed just may wind up doing more for their country than can be credited at the moment.