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| Member |
To those of you familiar… what are the rates, I mean how much does it cost? I’m not asking for a friend… it has got to beat the hell out of trying to find a sane woman to date! | |||
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Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best |
No. That's not how it would work at all. You might have a few places like that, at least in the public-facing parts, but everywhere else would still be gross and seedy, and people would still be getting trafficked. Because people that are willing to pay for it also want things that a regulated establishment isn't going to be able to provide legally. The sex industry is gross, evil, and fraught with violence and corruption. I grew up in Prague. It was in no way sanitary or safe. I didn't partake, but as a teenage kid I got regularly propositioned on the street. And everybody knew the mob ran the show on the back end. My wife was in Cambodia where it's also legal. She saw all kinds of horrible stuff, and at one point a prostitute climbed through the window of her teammates 5th story hotel room because she showed up to meet a John in the room next door and found five guys ready for a gang bang. The only way out was to climb out the 5th story bathroom window and clamber around onto the balcony next door...which turned out to be our friend's. That's some desperation right there. | |||
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delicately calloused |
I believe it’s morally wrong. I believe those who engage in it, damage themselves and their families. I think its presence in society is corrosive. Those are moral arguments though. Should people be able to choose to engage in it in a free society? Maybe. Are there behaviors and choices that in aggregate are so destructive that society should ban them? Yeah, certainly. Freedom unbridled can be destructive. That’s why we have moral codes. How to provide a maximum amount of freedom while protecting society from corrosion? The answer is to teach moral codes to the young…..but we have rejected that generally. We may be too far gone. You’re a lying dog-faced pony soldier | |||
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| Ammoholic |
I do not believe that your definition of moral is the same as mine (or Webster’s). My understanding of moral is in concert with one’s value system. What one person sees as moral, another may see as immoral. In at least my opinion, the fact that government thinks something is okay does not make it moral. I’m sure that the US government has done things itself that I and perhaps many others would consider immoral. Interning American citizens of Japanese descent leaps to mind as one example. To the OP, the question seems somewhat open ended and a little complex. Do I think prostitution in general is morally right? Nope, not for me. Do I think that government should be sticking its nose in what two freely acting, consenting adults do? Heck no. I don’t have knowledge or experience of the world of prostitution, but I would guess that some portion, and perhaps the majority does not involve freely acting, consenting adult prostitutes. If the question is, “Should an adult woman who wants to be able to make a little extra cash and get laid by selling herself be able to do so legally?”, my take would be that I don’t approve of that choice and I hope that none of the women I care about would make that choice, but I’m not sure that my tax dollars should fund my government enforcing my moral choices on others. If the reality of the prostitution world is as nasty as 92fstech makes it sound, then I’m fine with my tax dollars going to shut that nonsense down. | |||
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Member |
Prostitution has been getting the ugly and socially clumsy laid forever. Glad they get a chance to experience it. | |||
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| SIGforum's Berlin Correspondent  |
For most of German history going back to the Middle Ages, prostitution has been "legal but regulated", which for a long time meant confined to designated brothels. From the mid-19th to the end of the 20th century, it was considered "against the good customs", meaning an immoral business you couldn't expect to be paid for. Obviously that made prostitutes more vulnerable to be exploited, and dependent on pimps to protect their income. Since then, legislation has been somewhat contradictory. From 1900, pimping has been outlawed, but obviously continued. In 1923 a court ruling found that if you couldn't expect payment, it couldn't be taxed either. However, in 1943 and 1948 courts ruled the opposite, which as they said made the government "the biggest pimp of all". In post-war West Germany, prostitutes had to register and undergo regular health checks. In East Germany, prostitution was officially illegal since 1968, but tolerated - particularly if it brought in hard currency and intelligence from Western visitors. Clearly, unregulated business existed on both sides, too. In 2000/01 several court rulings found that prostitution could no longer considered to be "against the good customs" and should be treated as a regular paying occupation. The old law mandating regular health checks also went away. Combined with open EU borders and the rise of the internet, that opened up the Wild West of Paysex. There were still professionals who even paid taxes; but on the one hand there was a huge influx of women from Eastern and Southern Europe which were often trafficked under false pretenses, and almost invariably exploited. On the other, there was a rise in "hobby whores" and "hookers of opportunity" motivated by want of sex and money in variable mixtures to get sone of either on the side, and would't dream of declaring it for taxing. Politicians on both the Left and Right soon complained that Germany had become "the brothel of Europe". Even moderates pointed out that any french fries booth was now more regulated than a brothel. Opponents focussed on forced prostitution and claimed that as much as 90 percent of women don't work in the field of their own free will, including many victims of trafficking. By another estimate, 60 percent of the total are non-German. Good numbers are hard to come by; estimates range vom 90,000 to 700,000 total prostitutes including part-timers and moonlighters, with 400,000 frequently quoted since the 1980s. Over the last ten or 15 years, there has been a push among opponents to introduce the Scandinavian Model which doesn't ban selling, but buying sex; or as I call it, the feminist approach to controlling female sexuality. Obviously that isn't the silver bullet against prostitution either, which still exists in Scandinavia and means its own risks and detriments to self-decided sex workers. Accordingly, German professional associations of the latter (which of course exist) are fighting this tooth and nail. In 2017, another change of law re-introduced registration, annual health checks, extra permits for brothels, a ban on "flatrate sex" offers, mandatory condom use, and separately punishment for men knowingly seeing forced prostitutes. In practice, the effects were moderate. By 2019, a little over 40,000 sex workers had registered, so maybe ten percent of the total. Most refuse over privacy concerns or to avoid taxation, though a lot of non-German girls working at fixed locations are now allegedly registered by their definitely-not-pimps, so that may be a success. I've also heard girls say that the condom mandate, including for oral, is a good thing, because they can point to it when they need to. Of course, what happens between two consenting adults in private still mostly stays there, particularly if it happens on the side. In general, sex workers will offer whatever they like and the customer pays for. Among those registered in 2019, 35 percent had Romanian citizenship, 19 percent German, 11 Bulgarian, eight Hungarian. On the advertizing side, the Eastern Europeans among them often pass themselves off as Germans or Southern Europeans like Italians and Spaniards, even Latinas if they can get away with that to dodge the stereotypes about trafficking and exploitation which come with their actual nationality. There's an app/website for everything of course, and the one with a programmatic name translating to "buyme" currently shows 1,382 women, 244 men, 149 trans persons and 50 couples (hetero, lesbian and various trans combinations) in a 100-kilometer radius around my ZIP code (but that's Berlin for you). Of those, 1,296 claim to be "from" Germany, 46 Poland, 40 Spain, and 30 the US. Also Ukraine 29, Argentina 26, France 25, Brazil 24, Italy 23, UK 22, etc. Not all of those are offering actual sex dates, though with 1,557, by far the most do. Some just do cam sex, sell used lingerie, whatever desires there's a market for. Sites like these are a step up from the wink-nudge prostitution via OnlyFans, dating apps etc. which has been mentioned here. With prostitution legal, they operate on the also-noted principle of "men pay for sex anyway", supplemented by "women sleeping around like men are called whores anyway - now that we have short-circuited those stereotypes, let's cut to the chase". This one is a mix of "hobby whores", self-employed professionals, and escort services/definitely-not-pimps using it as extra ad space for their girls. As a habitual single, I've long used it for quick hook-ups, some of which actually turned into years-long quasi-relations. If I feel some embarrassment about it, it's because I can no longer remember all the girls without sitting down and making a list ... I've met a lot of very different interesting women this way along with some I don't care to see ever again, while missing others who have vanished very much. As elsewhere, you learn to spot the red flags and mostly sort out the total victims and psychos. Of the ones who remain I'd say that what they have in common is a want for self-assertion. I tend to sort them into the "adventurous student", "bored housewife" and "abused in childhood" type. For all, being directly paid for sex is an additional kick or satisfaction. The "adventurous student" basically works on "I'm young and hot, let's see what guys will pay me and what I can still learn about sex". The "bored housewife" goes "okay I'm not that young anymore, but I think I'm still hot and experienced, let's see what guys will pay me on top of getting the sex I want“. The abused type has of course unfortunately learned that sex is all about her that matters, so she seeks more of it but makes guys pay for it (and obviously, that overlaps with the victim category, though all of them can also be a little psycho). That's still a broad brush of course; in the end they're all distinct, and often memorable persons. There was the police cadet who walked into my place, looked at my gunstand with mostly softair weapons, and said "oh, we just fired the MP5, too" (I proposed to her on the spot). She was also a volunteer EMT with the local fire department. There was the overachiever undergoing dual university and vocational training with Siemens, now working for them as a manager in a neighbouring country; she certainly had an urge to excel at everything. There was the artsy type in her 50s living out of town, who also had a small appartment near me filled with philosophical books and paintings in progress. She mentioned she was teaching in some capacity, and I think I once saw her playing the gamba at a concert, which would fit. There still is the American student of international law who now runs two of her own businesses, in addition to offering high-class escort services in Europe and the US; she's about the smartest woman I ever met. And so on.This message has been edited. Last edited by: BansheeOne, | |||
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Step by step walk the thousand mile road |
Call it prostitution, make it illegal or not, the bottom line is everyone pays to have sex. Nice is overrated "It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government." Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018 | |||
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money  |
Well, it seemed like it was free before I was married... But, 37 years later... I guess I'm still paying. However, it's a mutual thing. She's paying too, just in different ways. I think I'm paying more for the 3 kids and the grandkids than for the sex... but it's worth it. "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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Get Off My Lawn |
I agree. Unbridled freedom has its price, as leftist Oregon has recently discovered when they rolled back their decriminalization of drugs a few years ago, now re-criminalizing because the social damage was too severe for even leftists. Could legal prostitution increase human trafficking? Many studies say yes it does, some say no. Diversionary bread and circuses? Who knows, but do legal drug use, loosening of sexual morals, unchecked crime, etc., does this placate society negatively? I think so. "I’m not going to read Time Magazine, I’m not going to read Newsweek, I’m not going to read any of these magazines; I mean, because they have too much to lose by printing the truth"- Bob Dylan, 1965 | |||
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money |
Definitely. Society is weakened. Strong families are the only bulwark. "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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| Member |
This has been an interesting discussion to follow. I often find myself returning to America the Beautiful... Confirm thy soul in self-control. Thy liberty in law. I believe in liberty. The self-control can come from various sources, and is required for liberty to prevail. https://www.vatican.va/content...ion_to_chastity.html This is the chunk of the Catholic Catechism that addresses chastity, and offenses against it. Paragraph 2355 addresses prostitution specifically. I could not find as clear a stance in Luther's Catechism. "2355 Prostitution does injury to the dignity of the person who engages in it, reducing the person to an instrument of sexual pleasure. the one who pays sins gravely against himself: he violates the chastity to which his Baptism pledged him and defiles his body, the temple of the Holy Spirit.139 Prostitution is a social scourge. It usually involves women, but also men, children, and adolescents (The latter two cases involve the added sin of scandal.). While it is always gravely sinful to engage in prostitution, the imputability of the offense can be attenuated by destitution, blackmail, or social pressure." I am aware of the perceived hypocrisy of Christians on various fronts. Perhaps especially Catholics, when it comes to sexual immorality. Luther does address that in his Catechism, in a way. I think a primary issue with prostitution is the same, or similar, to the issue with pornography, in the Catholic Catechism: A minimization or elimination of the mutual intimacy intended for our sexuality by our creator. As with so many things, I believe that we shouldn't impose laws. Those who know how things ought to work should put forth the effort to inform others, so that they may also walk in the path of righteousness of their own free will. I believe that things like prostitution and pornography exist in opposition to our inherent morality. Inherent human morality is not defined by a culture. | |||
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| Member |
Local to me, base rate seems to be about $250-$350 an hour. | |||
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| No More Mr. Nice Guy |
Making something desirable illegal does not stop it. It drives it into the shadows, to be provided by criminals, who have no objection to victimizing people. Regulating something desirable will bring at least a portion of it into the sunlight where participants are consenting adults. Alcohol is a good example, as is marijuana. But there will always be the criminal element who provide what is not permitted under the regulations, or who can get more profit by staying out of the lawful arena. I don't wish for any person to be in the sex trade, as it will be damaging to them. It is the duty of family and community to teach morality and what the practical consequences are. Isn't that really why morality exists? Things which are not harmful are considered moral. | |||
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| Member |
It appears as if it is legal or partially legal in more countries of the world, than where it is prohibited: https://worldpopulationreview....rostitution-is-legal _________________________ | |||
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Member |
That better be some amazing stuff. | |||
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| Experienced Slacker |
Inflation is a bitch. | |||
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Casuistic Thinker and Daoist |
Okay get ready to get your mind(s) blown. At legal brothels in NV, the starting rate is $1800...but they do take major credit cards No, Daoism isn't a religion | |||
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| Casuistic Thinker and Daoist |
The local "street rate" is $50 for 15 mins. This is from talking to hookers while I was working Court Security in the arraignment courts...but this was close t0 20 years ago Escorts that would come to your hotel room were charging about $400 at mid-tier hotels, and $200 at lower tier hotels...this was their hourly rate No, Daoism isn't a religion | |||
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Make America Great Again |
Yeah, I wouldn't be opposed to it at all in a clean health-controlled setting; no street walkers! Regarding the guy, I am in that position now. Thirty-four years of marriage and have done without for over 14 years now. I know where to find it locally, but am doing my best to honor that marriage commitment. ____________________________ Bill R. North Alabama _____________________________ Classic West German P-Series Fan... Hammer-Fired Only! | |||
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money |
Try couples counseling? "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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